In another thread (Should road rules depend on the car?) Mark Goodge
posted a link to this picture: https://tinyurl.com/4ywavjue.
It set me thinking as to whether there is any legal differance between
the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e. the one shown
in the photo:
'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
From a strictly semantic point of view they give different instructions
if the lights are not operational but is there any legal distinction
that would lead contactors to choose one over the other or is it purely >dependent on what the have back at the yard?
In another thread (Should road rules depend on the car?) Mark Goodge
posted a link to this picture: https://tinyurl.com/4ywavjue.
It set me thinking as to whether there is any legal differance between
the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e. the one shown
in the photo:
   'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
   'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
From a strictly semantic point of view they give different instructions
if the lights are not operational but is there any legal distinction
that would lead contactors to choose one over the other or is it purely dependent on what the have back at the yard?
is any legal differance between
the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e. the one shown
in the photo:
   'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
   'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
Andrew wrote:
is any legal differance between the two variations of signs used at
temporary lights; i.e. the one shown in the photo:
    'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
    'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
I presume both wordings are to avoid the yorkshire problem with signs
that read
    'Wait while red light shows'
In another thread (Should road rules depend on the car?) Mark Goodge
posted a link to this picture: https://tinyurl.com/4ywavjue.
It set me thinking as to whether there is any legal differance between
the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e. the one shown
in the photo:
   'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
   'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
From a strictly semantic point of view they give different instructions
if the lights are not operational but is there any legal distinction
that would lead contactors to choose one over the other or is it purely dependent on what the have back at the yard?
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 08:46:12 +0000, Andrew <andrew_d_may@hotmail.com> wrote:
In another thread (Should road rules depend on the car?) Mark Goodge
posted a link to this picture: https://tinyurl.com/4ywavjue.
It set me thinking as to whether there is any legal differance between
the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e. the one shown
in the photo:
'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
From a strictly semantic point of view they give different instructions
if the lights are not operational but is there any legal distinction
that would lead contactors to choose one over the other or is it purely >>dependent on what the have back at the yard?
The wording isn't really relevant, at least most of it. The key thing is
that the sign performs the role of indicating where the virtual temporary stop line is. So the only word that matters is "here".
"Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message news:qg7ppj1q2envd3ur3aoj8c269lehdqeppf@4ax.com...
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 08:46:12 +0000, Andrew <andrew_d_may@hotmail.com> wrote: >>
In another thread (Should road rules depend on the car?) Mark Goodge
posted a link to this picture: https://tinyurl.com/4ywavjue.
It set me thinking as to whether there is any legal differance between
the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e. the one shown >>> in the photo:
'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
From a strictly semantic point of view they give different instructions >>> if the lights are not operational but is there any legal distinction
that would lead contactors to choose one over the other or is it purely
dependent on what the have back at the yard?
The wording isn't really relevant, at least most of it. The key thing is
that the sign performs the role of indicating where the virtual temporary
stop line is. So the only word that matters is "here".
Nevertheless any driver, human or robot, unfamiliar with such signs might
not immediately recognise that the sign wasn't working; and in the latter case, draw to a stop and sit waiting until the penny finally dropped.
On 31/01/2025 10:39, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:I like the one which says "stop on red light". I doubt if many drivers
is any legal differance between the two variations of signs used at
temporary lights; i.e. the one shown in the photo:
'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
I presume both wordings are to avoid the yorkshire problem with signs
that read
'Wait while red light shows'
try to get their cars on to the top of the light!
On 31/01/2025 13:11, billy bookcase wrote:
"Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qg7ppj1q2envd3ur3aoj8c269lehdqeppf@4ax.com...
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 08:46:12 +0000, Andrew <andrew_d_may@hotmail.com>
wrote:
In another thread (Should road rules depend on the car?) Mark Goodge
posted a link to this picture: https://tinyurl.com/4ywavjue.
It set me thinking as to whether there is any legal differance
between the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e.
the one shown in the photo:
'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
From a strictly semantic point of view they give different
instructions
if the lights are not operational but is there any legal distinction
that would lead contactors to choose one over the other or is it
purely dependent on what the have back at the yard?
The wording isn't really relevant, at least most of it. The key thing
is that the sign performs the role of indicating where the virtual
temporary stop line is. So the only word that matters is "here".
Nevertheless any driver, human or robot, unfamiliar with such signs
might not immediately recognise that the sign wasn't working; and in
the latter case, draw to a stop and sit waiting until the penny finally
dropped.
I robot car would just sit and rust if confronted by a signal
permanently on red.
On 31/01/2025 13:11, billy bookcase wrote:
"Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qg7ppj1q2envd3ur3aoj8c269lehdqeppf@4ax.com...
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 08:46:12 +0000, Andrew <andrew_d_may@hotmail.com> wrote:
In another thread (Should road rules depend on the car?) Mark Goodge
posted a link to this picture: https://tinyurl.com/4ywavjue.
It set me thinking as to whether there is any legal differance between >>>> the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e. the one shown >>>> in the photo:
'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
From a strictly semantic point of view they give different instructions >>>> if the lights are not operational but is there any legal distinction
that would lead contactors to choose one over the other or is it purely >>>> dependent on what the have back at the yard?
The wording isn't really relevant, at least most of it. The key thing is >>> that the sign performs the role of indicating where the virtual temporary >>> stop line is. So the only word that matters is "here".
Nevertheless any driver, human or robot, unfamiliar with such signs might
not immediately recognise that the sign wasn't working; and in the latter
case, draw to a stop and sit waiting until the penny finally dropped.
I robot car would just sit and rust if confronted by a signal permanently on red.
A human driven car would (a) carefully drive past it or (b) do a three point turn and
take a different route.
Today marks the fourth or fifth time in recent memory that I've been at a set of
temporary lights stuck on red. I understand this happens if the controller cannot
verify that all of the lights are functioning.
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 12:00:27 +0000, "Les. Hayward" <les@nospam.invalid> wrote:
On 31/01/2025 10:39, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:I like the one which says "stop on red light". I doubt if many drivers
is any legal differance between the two variations of signs used at
temporary lights; i.e. the one shown in the photo:
    'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
    'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
I presume both wordings are to avoid the yorkshire problem with signs
that read
    'Wait while red light shows'
try to get their cars on to the top of the light!
The sign I often quote as being impossible to obey is "Use both lanes"
"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message >news:vnj0rq$3jhm7$1@dont-email.me...
I robot car would just sit and rust if confronted by a signal permanently on red.
A human driven car would (a) carefully drive past it or (b) do a three point turn and
take a different route.
My mistake.
I wrongly assumed that malfunctioning lights fail-safed to off. Whereas
quote:
Today marks the fourth or fifth time in recent memory that I've been at a set of
temporary lights stuck on red. I understand this happens if the controller cannot
verify that all of the lights are functioning.
unquote
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 12:00:27 +0000, "Les. Hayward"
<les@nospam.invalid> wrote:
On 31/01/2025 10:39, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:I like the one which says "stop on red light". I doubt if many drivers
is any legal differance between the two variations of signs used at
temporary lights; i.e. the one shown in the photo:
'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
I presume both wordings are to avoid the yorkshire problem with signs
that read
'Wait while red light shows'
try to get their cars on to the top of the light!
The sign I often quote as being impossible to obey is
"Use both lanes" https://c7.alamy.com/comp/AR697H/use-both-lanes-road-sign-AR697H.jpg
I doubt if you are supposed to straddle the white line!
What's wrong with "Use either lane"?
On 31/01/2025 13:11, billy bookcase wrote:
"Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qg7ppj1q2envd3ur3aoj8c269lehdqeppf@4ax.com...
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 08:46:12 +0000, Andrew <andrew_d_may@hotmail.com>
wrote:
In another thread (Should road rules depend on the car?) Mark Goodge
posted a link to this picture: https://tinyurl.com/4ywavjue.
It set me thinking as to whether there is any legal differance between >>>> the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e. the one
shown
in the photo:
    'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
    'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
 From a strictly semantic point of view they give different
instructions
if the lights are not operational but is there any legal distinction
that would lead contactors to choose one over the other or is it purely >>>> dependent on what the have back at the yard?
The wording isn't really relevant, at least most of it. The key thing is >>> that the sign performs the role of indicating where the virtual
temporary
stop line is. So the only word that matters is "here".
Nevertheless any driver, human or robot, unfamiliar with such signs might
not immediately recognise that the sign wasn't working; and in the latter
case, draw to a stop and sit waiting until the penny finally dropped.
I robot car would just sit and rust if confronted by a signal
permanently on red.
A human driven car would (a) carefully drive past it or (b) do a threeCall centre operatives are understaffed and clueless.
point turn and take a different route.
Amazingly in a potentially life threatening situation there is no big *emergency stop* button or kill switch for the unfortunate user.
On 31/01/2025 17:22, Max Demian wrote:
[quoted text muted]
There have been rather amusing (if it isn't you) examples of robotic
taxis getting themselves stuck with the passenger trapped inside calling
the control centre to get them out of the madhouse.
On 31 Jan 2025 at 17:09:32 GMT, "Graham." <graham-usenet@mail.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 12:00:27 +0000, "Les. Hayward" <les@nospam.invalid>
wrote:
On 31/01/2025 10:39, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:I like the one which says "stop on red light". I doubt if many drivers
is any legal differance between the two variations of signs used at
temporary lights; i.e. the one shown in the photo:
'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
I presume both wordings are to avoid the yorkshire problem with signs
that read
'Wait while red light shows'
try to get their cars on to the top of the light!
The sign I often quote as being impossible to obey is "Use both lanes"
https://c7.alamy.com/comp/AR697H/use-both-lanes-road-sign-AR697H.jpg
I doubt if you are supposed to straddle the white line!
What's wrong with "Use either lane"?
They mean something different; 'use both lanes' while, as you say,
having a really stupid primary meaning, is a positive injunction to make
sure both lanes are used, not to stick to the most popular one. I am
equally annoyed that it does not say to make sure both lanes are
occupied, but that would be longer.
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 20:44:41 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:
On 31/01/2025 17:22, Max Demian wrote:
[quoted text muted]
There have been rather amusing (if it isn't you) examples of robotic
taxis getting themselves stuck with the passenger trapped inside calling
the control centre to get them out of the madhouse.
Not great if the EV catches fire ...
They mean something different; 'use both lanes' while, as you say,
having a really stupid primary meaning, is a positive injunction to make
sure both lanes are used, not to stick to the most popular one. I am
equally annoyed that it does not say to make sure both lanes are
occupied, but that would be longer.
ChatGPT "understood" without problem. I imagine DeepSeek would to. At a fraction the cost.
Jethro_uk wrote:
ChatGPT "understood" without problem. I imagine DeepSeek would to. At aPlease explain where cost comes in.
fraction the cost.
Les. Hayward wrote:
Jethro_uk wrote:
ChatGPT "understood" without problem. I imagine DeepSeek would to. At aPlease explain where cost comes in.
fraction the cost.
With all these AI chat services, someone has to pay per "token" of input
and output (a token roughly equating to a word).
for ChatGPT-o1Â :Â $15/million tokens input and $60/million output
for DeepSeek-r1 :Â $0.55/million input and $2.19/million output
On 01/02/2025 09:52, Jethro_uk wrote:
Please explain where cost comes in. Also, are we really at the stageThey mean something different; 'use both lanes' while, as you say,
having a really stupid primary meaning, is a positive injunction to make >>> sure both lanes are used, not to stick to the most popular one. I am
equally annoyed that it does not say to make sure both lanes are
occupied, but that would be longer.
ChatGPT "understood" without problem. I imagine DeepSeek would to. At a
fraction the cost.
where we need to regard some robot software as an authority to define
our own language? Yes, I realise that dictionaries gave up the ghost
years ago...
On 31 Jan 2025 at 17:09:32 GMT, "Graham." <graham-usenet@mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 12:00:27 +0000, "Les. Hayward"
<les@nospam.invalid> wrote:
On 31/01/2025 10:39, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:I like the one which says "stop on red light". I doubt if many drivers
is any legal differance between the two variations of signs used at
temporary lights; i.e. the one shown in the photo:
'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
I presume both wordings are to avoid the yorkshire problem with signs
that read
'Wait while red light shows'
try to get their cars on to the top of the light!
The sign I often quote as being impossible to obey is
"Use both lanes"
https://c7.alamy.com/comp/AR697H/use-both-lanes-road-sign-AR697H.jpg
I doubt if you are supposed to straddle the white line!
What's wrong with "Use either lane"?
They mean something different; 'use both lanes' while, as you say, having a really stupid primary meaning, is a positive injunction to make sure both lanes are used, not to stick to the most popular one. I am equally annoyed that it does not say to make sure both lanes are occupied, but that would be longer.
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 17:22:02 +0000, Max Demian wrote:
On 31/01/2025 13:11, billy bookcase wrote:
"Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qg7ppj1q2envd3ur3aoj8c269lehdqeppf@4ax.com...
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 08:46:12 +0000, Andrew <andrew_d_may@hotmail.com>
wrote:
In another thread (Should road rules depend on the car?) Mark Goodge >>>>> posted a link to this picture: https://tinyurl.com/4ywavjue.
It set me thinking as to whether there is any legal differance
between the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e.
the one shown in the photo:
'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
From a strictly semantic point of view they give different
instructions
if the lights are not operational but is there any legal distinction >>>>> that would lead contactors to choose one over the other or is it
purely dependent on what the have back at the yard?
The wording isn't really relevant, at least most of it. The key thing
is that the sign performs the role of indicating where the virtual
temporary stop line is. So the only word that matters is "here".
Nevertheless any driver, human or robot, unfamiliar with such signs
might not immediately recognise that the sign wasn't working; and in
the latter case, draw to a stop and sit waiting until the penny finally
dropped.
I robot car would just sit and rust if confronted by a signal
permanently on red.
Only if so programmed. It could equally wait a certain amount of time and then :
a) carefully drive past it or (b) do a three point turn and take a
different route.
On 31/01/2025 18:07, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 17:22:02 +0000, Max Demian wrote:
On 31/01/2025 13:11, billy bookcase wrote:
"Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qg7ppj1q2envd3ur3aoj8c269lehdqeppf@4ax.com...
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 08:46:12 +0000, Andrew <andrew_d_may@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote:
In another thread (Should road rules depend on the car?) Mark Goodge >>>>>> posted a link to this picture: https://tinyurl.com/4ywavjue.
It set me thinking as to whether there is any legal differance
between the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e. >>>>>> the one shown in the photo:
     'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
     'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
 From a strictly semantic point of view they give different
 instructions
if the lights are not operational but is there any legal distinction >>>>>> that would lead contactors to choose one over the other or is it
purely dependent on what the have back at the yard?
The wording isn't really relevant, at least most of it. The key thing >>>>> is that the sign performs the role of indicating where the virtual
temporary stop line is. So the only word that matters is "here".
Nevertheless any driver, human or robot, unfamiliar with such signs
might not immediately recognise that the sign wasn't working; and in
the latter case, draw to a stop and sit waiting until the penny finally >>>> dropped.
I robot car would just sit and rust if confronted by a signal
permanently on red.
Only if so programmed. It could equally wait a certain amount of time and
then :
a) carefully drive past it or (b) do a three point turn and take a
different route.
I wouldn't trust a robot car to do either safely.
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 17:09:32 +0000, Graham. wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 12:00:27 +0000, "Les. Hayward" <les@nospam.invalid>
wrote:
On 31/01/2025 10:39, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:I like the one which says "stop on red light". I doubt if many drivers
is any legal differance between the two variations of signs used at
temporary lights; i.e. the one shown in the photo:
    'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
    'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
I presume both wordings are to avoid the yorkshire problem with signs
that read
    'Wait while red light shows'
try to get their cars on to the top of the light!
The sign I often quote as being impossible to obey is "Use both lanes"
ChatGPT:
explain "use both lanes" when seen on the road.
ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
When you see a "Use Both Lanes" sign on the road, it typically means that drivers can use both available lanes leading up to a specific point,
often before a merge or bottleneck. This is commonly seen in zipper merge situations, where traffic should stay in both lanes as long as possible before merging in an alternating pattern.
This sign helps improve traffic flow by preventing early merging, which
can cause unnecessary slowdowns and congestion. If you see this sign, you should continue in either lane until you reach the designated merge point.
You said:
How can a driver use both simultaneously
ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
A driver can't literally use both lanes at the same time. The "Use Both Lanes" sign means that all drivers should utilize both lanes leading up
to a merge or bottleneck, rather than merging too early. It encourages vehicles to stay in their respective lanes and take turns merging in a "zipper" fashion at the merge point.
It's a way to optimize traffic flow and reduce congestion, not an
instruction for a single driver to straddle both lanes.
On 01/02/2025 12:42, Max Demian wrote:
On 31/01/2025 18:07, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 17:22:02 +0000, Max Demian wrote:
On 31/01/2025 13:11, billy bookcase wrote:
"Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qg7ppj1q2envd3ur3aoj8c269lehdqeppf@4ax.com...
On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 08:46:12 +0000, Andrew <andrew_d_may@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote:
In another thread (Should road rules depend on the car?) Mark Goodge >>>>>>> posted a link to this picture: https://tinyurl.com/4ywavjue.
It set me thinking as to whether there is any legal differance
between the two variations of signs used at temporary lights; i.e. >>>>>>> the one shown in the photo:
     'When red light shows wait HERE'
and the alternative
     'Wait HERE until green light shows'.
 From a strictly semantic point of view they give different
 instructions
if the lights are not operational but is there any legal distinction >>>>>>> that would lead contactors to choose one over the other or is it >>>>>>> purely dependent on what the have back at the yard?
The wording isn't really relevant, at least most of it. The key thing >>>>>> is that the sign performs the role of indicating where the virtual >>>>>> temporary stop line is. So the only word that matters is "here".
Nevertheless any driver, human or robot, unfamiliar with such signs
might not immediately recognise that the sign wasn't working; and in >>>>> the latter case, draw to a stop and sit waiting until the penny
finally
dropped.
I robot car would just sit and rust if confronted by a signal
permanently on red.
Only if so programmed. It could equally wait a certain amount of time
and
then :
a) carefully drive past it or (b) do a three point turn and take a
different route.
I wouldn't trust a robot car to do either safely.
Why on earth not? Especially if it can.
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