On 14 Feb 2025 at 17:25:27 GMT, "Dave" <david.christopher.astles@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello everybody,

I’ve got a question about an Application Hearing and what I have to do or provide for it.

The background is that I am suing somebody for breach of contract. I had an agreement with somebody that they, in return for work I did for them
readying a house for rental, would make a donation to a charity of my choosing. Of course they didn’t and I issued a claim against them.

A few weeks ago, I received a letter from the Court saying that the case
had been struck out by a judge reading the papers because it was “an abuse of process“ and that there was “no credible course of action”.

I was amazed by this but I wrote back as invited to do pointing out that a) there was an agreement, b) that I did the work, c) that my choice of consideration was a payment to my choice of charity, d) the defendant didn’t fulfil their obligations etc.

The above, in my mind, spells out the outline for the case of breach of contract. I can prove all of this via messages the defendant and myself exchanged. This evidence hasn’t been provided yet as no date for a hearing has been set.

I also asked that the Court examine the defence and Counter Claim for admissibility in the Small Claims Track.

I have now been invited to an Application Hearing. There are no directions regarding paperwork.

So my question is, “How should I approach this and with what degree of evidence?” Is it likely to be a top level view of what the items of evidence are likely to be or is there something else that I should prepare myself for? What will the Court want to establish?

Many thanks for your help.

I am not a lawyer, but I think you need to look very hard for reported cases showing when (if ever) doing something for a third party can amount to a consideration.


--

Roger Hayter

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On 2025-02-14, Dave <david.christopher.astles@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello everybody,

I’ve got a question about an Application Hearing and what I have to do or provide for it.

The background is that I am suing somebody for breach of contract. I had an agreement with somebody that they, in return for work I did for them
readying a house for rental, would make a donation to a charity of my choosing. Of course they didn’t and I issued a claim against them.

A few weeks ago, I received a letter from the Court saying that the case
had been struck out by a judge reading the papers because it was “an abuse of process“ and that there was “no credible course of action”.

I was amazed by this but I wrote back as invited to do pointing out that a) there was an agreement, b) that I did the work, c) that my choice of consideration was a payment to my choice of charity, d) the defendant didn’t fulfil their obligations etc.

The above, in my mind, spells out the outline for the case of breach of contract. I can prove all of this via messages the defendant and myself exchanged. This evidence hasn’t been provided yet as no date for a hearing has been set.

I also asked that the Court examine the defence and Counter Claim for admissibility in the Small Claims Track.

I have now been invited to an Application Hearing. There are no directions regarding paperwork.

So my question is, “How should I approach this and with what degree of evidence?” Is it likely to be a top level view of what the items of evidence are likely to be or is there something else that I should prepare myself for? What will the Court want to establish?

Many thanks for your help.

Obviously, as with any contract claim, you need to be able to prove the contract existed and what its terms were. Note that this includes that
there was "intent to create legal relations", i.e. a legally-enforceable contract rather than a "mere promise" that cannot be sued over. Normally
this is straightforward in dealings with businesses, but if the other
party is a friend or relation then it might be more of an issue.

If the judge for some reason is under the mistaken impression that you
cannot sue because the consideration (the donation) was not supposed to
flow to you, then point them to the House of Lords case of Beswick v
Beswick [1967], which said that a party such as you has the right to
sue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beswick_v_Beswick

But note that I think the remedy you are seeking is specific performance
of the donation rather than the more usual declaration of a debt owed to
you as the claimant. Perhaps this is why your claim was originally thrown
out.

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On 14/02/2025 17:43, Roger Hayter wrote:

On 14 Feb 2025 at 17:25:27 GMT, "Dave" <david.christopher.astles@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello everybody,

I’ve got a question about an Application Hearing and what I have to do or >> provide for it.

The background is that I am suing somebody for breach of contract. I had an >> agreement with somebody that they, in return for work I did for them
readying a house for rental, would make a donation to a charity of my
choosing. Of course they didn’t and I issued a claim against them.

A few weeks ago, I received a letter from the Court saying that the case
had been struck out by a judge reading the papers because it was “an abuse >> of process“ and that there was “no credible course of action”.

I was amazed by this but I wrote back as invited to do pointing out that a) >> there was an agreement, b) that I did the work, c) that my choice of
consideration was a payment to my choice of charity, d) the defendant
didn’t fulfil their obligations etc.

The above, in my mind, spells out the outline for the case of breach of
contract. I can prove all of this via messages the defendant and myself
exchanged. This evidence hasn’t been provided yet as no date for a hearing >> has been set.

I also asked that the Court examine the defence and Counter Claim for
admissibility in the Small Claims Track.

I have now been invited to an Application Hearing. There are no directions >> regarding paperwork.

So my question is, “How should I approach this and with what degree of
evidence?” Is it likely to be a top level view of what the items of
evidence are likely to be or is there something else that I should prepare >> myself for? What will the Court want to establish?

Many thanks for your help.

I am not a lawyer, but I think you need to look very hard for reported cases showing when (if ever) doing something for a third party can amount to a consideration.

For a contract there should be consideration. While it is normally money
I think hours expended in return for good or a service contains
consideration.

However the OP must suffer a cash loss. For that he must engage someone
else to carry out the promised work, and sue for its cost. It is
possible to sue in advance of this but is problematic which is perhaps
what the OP was trying to do.

On a parallel the tort of Breach of Promise was abolished in 1971.

But more extreme: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-47959684

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On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 17:25:27 -0000 (UTC), Dave <david.christopher.astles@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello everybody,

I�ve got a question about an Application Hearing and what I have to do or >provide for it.

The background is that I am suing somebody for breach of contract. I had an >agreement with somebody that they, in return for work I did for them
readying a house for rental, would make a donation to a charity of my >choosing. Of course they didn�t and I issued a claim against them.

A few weeks ago, I received a letter from the Court saying that the case
had been struck out by a judge reading the papers because it was �an abuse
of process� and that there was �no credible course of action�.

I was amazed by this but I wrote back as invited to do pointing out that a) >there was an agreement, b) that I did the work, c) that my choice of >consideration was a payment to my choice of charity, d) the defendant
didn�t fulfil their obligations etc.

Which is it, a payment or a donation?

Because it can't be both. And if it's a donation, then the judge is right: there's no case to answer. A donation can *never* be compelled, by either
law or contract. Otherwise, it isn't a donation.

So my question is, �How should I approach this and with what degree of >evidence?� Is it likely to be a top level view of what the items of
evidence are likely to be or is there something else that I should prepare >myself for? What will the Court want to establish?

Many thanks for your help.

You need to check what the original contract says. If it says "donation",
you need to be able to demonstrate that it was not, in fact a donation, even though that's what the contract called it. I suspect this is likely to be sufficiently difficult as to be not worth pursuing.

If, on the other hand, it does use the word "payment", then you may be on stronger ground. But you still have the issue of deciding on the level of
the payment, if that is not specified. Otherwise, the defendant could offer
to settle by means of a payment of 1p to the charity, and it would be hard
for you to insist that it should be more.

Mark

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On 2025-02-15, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:

On 15 Feb 2025 at 16:31:02 GMT, "Dave" <david.christopher.astles@gmail.com> wrote:

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

You need to check what the original contract says. If it says "donation", >>> you need to be able to demonstrate that it was not, in fact a
donation, even though that's what the contract called it. I suspect
this is likely to be sufficiently difficult as to be not worth
pursuing.

If, on the other hand, it does use the word "payment", then you may
be on stronger ground. But you still have the issue of deciding on
the level of the payment, if that is not specified. Otherwise, the
defendant could offer to settle by means of a payment of 1p to the
charity, and it would be hard for you to insist that it should be
more.

Thank you. I have messages acknowledging the need to make a payment
and the need for it to be commensurate with the amount of work
carried out.

I may have been imprecise as an LIP in my wording on the Claim Form.
But the entirety of the evidence makes it clear that a payment is
expected to me which I would then donate to a charity of my choice.

That's radically different from what you said. Is this contract in
writing?

Yes, that's a good point. If the contract, and your claim, said that
the other party would owe the money *to you*, then it is very weird
that it was struck out, unless Mark is right that the word "donation"
has stymied you.

On the other hand, if the contract said that the money would be owed
to the charity directly, then the point I made previously about a debt
claim being inappropriate would I think entirely explain the case being
thrown out - you effectively put on the claim form that you were owed
money, along with an explanation which said that you weren't owed money.

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On 15 Feb 2025 at 16:31:02 GMT, "Dave" <david.christopher.astles@gmail.com> wrote:

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 17:25:27 -0000 (UTC), Dave
<david.christopher.astles@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello everybody,

I’ve got a question about an Application Hearing and what I have to do or >>> provide for it.

The background is that I am suing somebody for breach of contract. I had an >>> agreement with somebody that they, in return for work I did for them
readying a house for rental, would make a donation to a charity of my
choosing. Of course they didn’t and I issued a claim against them.

A few weeks ago, I received a letter from the Court saying that the case >>> had been struck out by a judge reading the papers because it was “an abuse >>> of process“ and that there was “no credible course of action”.

I was amazed by this but I wrote back as invited to do pointing out that a) >>> there was an agreement, b) that I did the work, c) that my choice of
consideration was a payment to my choice of charity, d) the defendant
didn’t fulfil their obligations etc.

Which is it, a payment or a donation?

Because it can't be both. And if it's a donation, then the judge is right: >> there's no case to answer. A donation can *never* be compelled, by either
law or contract. Otherwise, it isn't a donation.

So my question is, “How should I approach this and with what degree of
evidence?” Is it likely to be a top level view of what the items of
evidence are likely to be or is there something else that I should prepare >>> myself for? What will the Court want to establish?

Many thanks for your help.

You need to check what the original contract says. If it says "donation",
you need to be able to demonstrate that it was not, in fact a donation, even >> though that's what the contract called it. I suspect this is likely to be
sufficiently difficult as to be not worth pursuing.

If, on the other hand, it does use the word "payment", then you may be on
stronger ground. But you still have the issue of deciding on the level of
the payment, if that is not specified. Otherwise, the defendant could offer >> to settle by means of a payment of 1p to the charity, and it would be hard >> for you to insist that it should be more.

Mark

Thank you. I have messages acknowledging the need to make a payment and the need for it to be commensurate with the amount of work carried out.

I may have been imprecise as an LIP in my wording on the Claim Form. But
the entirety of the evidence makes it clear that a payment is expected to
me which I would then donate to a charity of my choice.

That's radically different from what you said. Is this contract in writing?

--

Roger Hayter

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On 15/02/2025 16:31, Dave wrote:

<snip>

I may have been imprecise as an LIP in my wording on the Claim Form. But
the entirety of the evidence makes it clear that a payment is expected to
me which I would then donate to a charity of my choice.

Have you stated on the claim form that you would be no better off
financially even if the case was found in favour of yourself?

In other words you have made no loss and nothing to gain by the action?

Have you named the charity?

Can you copy the claim you made here? Suitably redacted of course.

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On 15/02/2025 16:31, Dave wrote:

Thank you. I have messages acknowledging the need to make a payment and the need for it to be commensurate with the amount of work carried out.

That's remarkably vague wording. What does 'commensurate' mean in hard
cash?

If you ever do anything like this again, at least state something clear
like "£100 all in" or "£30 an hour".

Essentially, you had some sort of gentleman's agreement, only the other
chap seems not to be a gentleman.

Presumably, you wanted the other guy to pay the charity direct,
probably so you didn't become embroiled in self-employed accounts etc,
but I think you should just have accepted that that meant your charity
might not get paid.

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On 17/02/2025 01:00, Dave wrote:

GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:

On 15/02/2025 16:31, Dave wrote:

Thank you. I have messages acknowledging the need to make a payment and the >>> need for it to be commensurate with the amount of work carried out.

That's remarkably vague wording. What does 'commensurate' mean in hard
cash?

If you ever do anything like this again, at least state something clear
like "£100 all in" or "£30 an hour".

Essentially, you had some sort of gentleman's agreement, only the other
chap seems not to be a gentleman.

Presumably, you wanted the other guy to pay the charity direct,
probably so you didn't become embroiled in self-employed accounts etc,
but I think you should just have accepted that that meant your charity
might not get paid.

Yes, we live and learn but it would be a pity to trust nobody in the future because of this.

This is essentially an extension of the work I do volunteering at a Repair Cafè except it was a house not a hairdryer.

She was meant to pay me but asked for the details of the charity ostensibly so she could ‘make payment directly to them’ thinking I wouldn’t check. I
would have then paid the charity.

So you can see from the above that it was a gentle lady’s agreement but she isn’t very ladylike.

Sadly, for a small amount of work like this, it's rather easy for one
party to take unfair advantage, regardless of the contract. For
example, in this case, the non-lady could have said:
"The place was left in a terrible mess, and I had to take two days
cleaning it"

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On 2025-02-19, Dave <david.christopher.astles@gmail.com> wrote:

Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:

On 2025-02-15, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:

On 15 Feb 2025 at 16:31:02 GMT, "Dave" <david.christopher.astles@gmail.com> >>> wrote:

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

You need to check what the original contract says. If it says "donation", >>>>> you need to be able to demonstrate that it was not, in fact a
donation, even though that's what the contract called it. I suspect
this is likely to be sufficiently difficult as to be not worth
pursuing.

If, on the other hand, it does use the word "payment", then you may
be on stronger ground. But you still have the issue of deciding on
the level of the payment, if that is not specified. Otherwise, the
defendant could offer to settle by means of a payment of 1p to the
charity, and it would be hard for you to insist that it should be
more.

Thank you. I have messages acknowledging the need to make a payment
and the need for it to be commensurate with the amount of work
carried out.

I may have been imprecise as an LIP in my wording on the Claim Form.
But the entirety of the evidence makes it clear that a payment is
expected to me which I would then donate to a charity of my choice.

That's radically different from what you said. Is this contract in
writing?

Yes, that's a good point. If the contract, and your claim, said that
the other party would owe the money *to you*, then it is very weird
that it was struck out, unless Mark is right that the word "donation"
has stymied you.

On the other hand, if the contract said that the money would be owed
to the charity directly, then the point I made previously about a debt
claim being inappropriate would I think entirely explain the case being
thrown out - you effectively put on the claim form that you were owed
money, along with an explanation which said that you weren't owed money.

I’m not sure it is radically different. I may have been imprecise on the Claim Form. When I pursued this with her and asked for “payment to be made as soon as is practical” she replied “give me the charity’s details and I
will make payment directly to them”. I did that, she didn’t.

So that sounds like the contract said she was supposed to pay *you*,
and that you simply nominated the charity as the recipient of the
money she was supposed to pay you. In which case the whole third party
/ charity bit is a complete red herring and it is odd that the case was
thrown out, unless the claim was worded very confusingly or it described
the payment as a "donation" and the judge therefore decided it was
voluntary.

Keep it simple. She owed money to you. You gave her details of how to
pay. The fact it was to someone else is irrelevant. She hasn't paid.
You are claiming the debt.

If on the facts the judge decides that you were doing the work pro bono
and in return there was a "suggested donation" then there never was any contract and you will lose the case, potentially with costs against you.

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On 19/02/2025 06:34, Dave wrote:

That is part of the defence but luckily I have messages praising the
quality of the work and some photographs. So I can also prove her defence contains lies.

It seems awfully short-sighted of her. Does she have so many people
prepared to help her that she can afford to upset someone who has done a
good job for her?

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On 22/02/2025 08:54, Dave wrote:

As an aside, if my Claim is struck out, what happens to the Counter Claim?

A counterclaim can continue if the main action is struck off.

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On 2025-03-04, Dave <david.christopher.astles@gmail.com> wrote:

Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 19/02/2025 06:39, Dave wrote:

Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:

On 2025-02-15, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:

That's radically different from what you said. Is this contract in
writing?

Yes, that's a good point. If the contract, and your claim, said that
the other party would owe the money *to you*, then it is very weird
that it was struck out, unless Mark is right that the word "donation"
has stymied you.

On the other hand, if the contract said that the money would be owed
to the charity directly, then the point I made previously about a debt >>>> claim being inappropriate would I think entirely explain the case being >>>> thrown out - you effectively put on the claim form that you were owed
money, along with an explanation which said that you weren't owed money. >>>>

I’m not sure it is radically different. I may have been imprecise on the >>> Claim Form. When I pursued this with her and asked for “payment to be made
as soon as is practical” she replied “give me the charity’s details and I
will make payment directly to them”. I did that, she didn’t.

I would suggest that this message is a key piece of evidence and should
specifically be brought to the court's attention when the time comes.

The defendant has admitted that the debt exists and that she intended to
take steps to satisfy it.

I’d like to thank everybody who was provided help and advice on this. Although I am replying to Simon, there are many valuable sub threads and I would like to thank all contributors.

The Application Hearing was today and I won (if that is the correct term).

It sounds like it pretty much is. Congratulations!

In terms of what happened, I’ve been asked to resubmit the Particulars of Claim so I will have to do that, making sure that I get the language right.

Did the hearing clarify what was the problem with your original
particulars of claim that lead to it being struck out?

That aside, it was a bizarre experience. In a rambling statement read out
by the Defendant, she claimed that there was a string hangman’s noose in the envelope along with some of the documentation I had sent, that the
Police were looking for me (pity she’s isn’t think to tell them where I was
at 1230 this afternoon) and that 5 chasing texts and 4 or 5 Court documents constituted harassment.

That is all a good sign really. I have had a slightly similar experience,
not with such lurid allegations being made, but where my opponent rambled
on about how they were the victim of a great injustice and provided a
litany of woes, all of which had the feature in common that they had
nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the hearing. My point being,
if your opponent has no idea what the judge is and is not interested in,
and is not capable of directing themselves to the actual points at hand,
they are at a significant disadvantage.

And it is in the Small Claims Track.

Excellent. That is good news. Did you ask for or receive any costs award
in your favour with respect to the hearing you had?

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On 2025-03-04, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote:

SNIP

And it is in the Small Claims Track.

Excellent. That is good news. Did you ask for or receive any costs award
in your favour with respect to the hearing you had?

IME Judges ignore all the lies and bull and only consider facts and
evidence. Seems the OP's defendant is on a hiding to nothing.
I don't think one can claim costs in small claims track ( MCOL). I think
the limit is travelling expenses.( Happy to be corrected)

The costs are very limited but are not zero. e.g. you can claim court
fees, travelling expenses (as you say), and "loss of earnings" due to
attending a hearing (up to £95 a day). It's worth asking for costs if
you're already at a hearing anyway!

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On 09/03/2025 11:07, Dave wrote:

Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 04/03/2025 21:09, Dave wrote:

I’d like to thank everybody who was provided help and advice on this.
Although I am replying to Simon, there are many valuable sub threads and I >>> would like to thank all contributors.

The Application Hearing was today and I won (if that is the correct term). >>

I am glad to hear you were successful in your application.

In terms of what happened, I’ve been asked to resubmit the Particulars of >>> Claim so I will have to do that, making sure that I get the language right. >>

Hopefully, you have a good idea of the mistakes you made in the original
PoC and know how to correct these. If you want to post a copy of the
(suitably redacted) Amended Particulars of Claim here prior to
submitting them, I'm sure people will be able to assist, if required.

That aside, it was a bizarre experience. In a rambling statement read out >>> by the Defendant, she claimed that there was a string hangman’s noose in >>> the envelope along with some of the documentation I had sent, that the
Police were looking for me (pity she’s isn’t think to tell them where I was
at 1230 this afternoon) and that 5 chasing texts and 4 or 5 Court documents >>> constituted harassment.

FWIW, (Ed: nothing), making bizarre claims is not limited to Litigants
in Person. I've experienced a solicitor opposing a wasted costs order,
(in the Magistrates' Court when they pulled the case literally as we
were about to enter the courtroom (Note: Court *room* not court
*building*), because, (and I quote verbatim), "I have been doing this
for years and I have never known this to happen before. Surely that
cannot be right?" at which point the clerk pulled out his copy of the
White Book and stared reading aloud from it. :-) (Spoiler Alert: The
court made a Wasted Costs Order.)

And it is in the Small Claims Track.

That's good news as it affords protection from costs. Do not forget to
add fixed commencement costs and interest to the amount claimed.

Thanks again.

ULM has done its job - a success all round.

Regards

S.P.

In term as of the resubmitted Claim, I was thinking of something along the lines of:

—————— Begins ——————-
In late 2023 the Defendant wished to purchase a house for rental on behalf
of her nephew.

The Defendant asked the Claimant for help with determining if a selected house was suitable, determination of which of the surveyor’s observations were significant and the carrying out of significant amounts of work on the house.

Can you be more specific? Did the claimant give advice only in respect
of one property or in respect of more than one? I think you need to give particulars of all the "significant amounts of work" and whether each
item of work had been agreed in advance by the Claimant.

The Claimant said that in return for this help, she would make a
substantial payment to the Claimant.

You really need to specify the amount. If the agreement was as vague as "substantial payment" then it doesn't sound like an enforceable contract.

The work was about 50 hours and completed to a documented high standard.

I think a schedule of what work was done and the hours spent on each
item, would be important.

On completion of this work, the Defendant failed to make any payment and
used subterfuge to make the Claimant believe that payments were in
progress.

I don't think "subterfuge" is a good word. It ought to be a neutral word
or phrase, eg the Defendant stated that payments would be made shortly
but failed to make those payments.

This is therefore a Claim for Breach of Contract. A Letter before Action
was served electronically (the Defendant responded “sue me then” and physically in the form of an early copy of the N1 form and evidence pack.

All of the Claimant’s statements are supported by tangible evidence.

What do you mean by "tangible"? I'd interpret it as evidence that can be touched, which is possibly not what you mean. In fact, the phrase seems unnecessary and redundant.

Furthermore there is tangible evidence showing that many of the statements made by the Defendant are untrue. This includes statements in her Defence (signed as a Statement of Truth. It also includes the assertion made and recorded in the Application hearing of 03/03/25 that the Police were “looking for the Claimant” although, despite it being known where he would
be on that day, they didn’t turn up!

Here, you really have to specify by reference to paragraphs in the
Defence, which statements are untrue. For example "at paragraph 5 of the Defence it is alleged that.... but the Claimant says this is untrue for
the following reasons".

The Claimant is an LIP.

It is not necessary to state that in your statement of case. It will be
obvious from the fact that the Claimant has no solicitors on the record.
Be aware that judges do not exercise latitude towards LIPs and may even
be exasperated by any failure to comply with court rules.

Amount sought £800
Costs estimated at £300 including loss of earnings to attend Court

——— Ends ———-

At the Application hearing the Judge (probably correctly) declined to say what was wrong with the original N1.

Any comments welcome. Thanks for any input.

Good luck!

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