The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British
Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the conflict
(aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether
Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of-uk-jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews are
facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter criticising
Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the
18-month-old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that all 36 signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints procedure” after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the Financial
Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent”
over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”, they said.
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up and
to speak out.”
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British
Jews
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British
Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the
conflict (aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether
Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about
that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of-uk-j ewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews are
facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter criticising
Israel over the war in Gaza.
I'd love to see the letter but it is behind the FT paywall, perhaps
available elsewhere<?>.
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British Jews
and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the conflict (aka genocide)
in Gaza.
"The Todal" <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote in message news:m6sed2Fs7ipU1@mid.individual.net...
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British Jews
But nobody has seriously believed that, have they ?
claims to be spekaing in behalf of all of its members, at all times. From the Major Political Parties, to the Upper Midsomer Cricket Club. So that while they
may support the general objectives, members may strongly oppose specific policies, but keep quiet for the sake of the overall good. Either winning the next General Election, or beating Lower Midsomer next Saturday,
despite their being dropped in favour of the Captain's brother-in-law
and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the conflict (aka genocide)
in Gaza.
Again nobody who gave the matter any serious thought has really believed
that either, have they ?
Organisations, and accompanying demonstrations with prominent placards. Although
admittedly these efforts maybe aren't as widely publicised as they otherwise might
be, in the media. Owing both to reluctance of News Editors to further complicate
an already complicated story, and the efforts and resources devoted to getting their
story across, by the respective PR departments. If such even exist, in some cases.
"The Todal" <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote in message news:m6sed2Fs7ipU1@mid.individual.net...
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British Jews
But nobody has seriously believed that, have they ? Of any organisation that claims to be spekaing in behalf of all of its members, at all times. From the Major Political Parties, to the Upper Midsomer Cricket Club. So that while they
may support the general objectives, members may strongly oppose specific policies, but keep quiet for the sake of the overall good. Either winning the next General Election, or beating Lower Midsomer next Saturday,
despite their being dropped in favour of the Captain's brother-in-law
and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the conflict (aka
genocide)
in Gaza.
Again nobody who gave the matter any serious thought has really believed
that either, have they ? If only as a result both of statements from other Jewish
Organisations, and accompanying demonstrations with prominent placards. Although
admittedly these efforts maybe aren't as widely publicised as they otherwise might
be, in the media. Owing both to reluctance of News Editors to further complicate
an already complicated story, and the efforts and resources devoted to getting
their
story across, by the respective PR departments. If such even exist, in some cases.
Here are the pledges - which were accepted by Starmer without argument.
https://bod.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/ten-pledges.jpg
It might look uncontroversial. But to take one example, pledge 5 means
that if anyone in the Party is accused of antisemitism, however
frivolously, then nobody is allowed to speak up for them or defend them
on pain of being suspended or expelled.
On 24 Apr 2025 at 10:23:19 BST, The Todal wrote:
Here are the pledges - which were accepted by Starmer without argument.
https://bod.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/ten-pledges.jpg
It might look uncontroversial. But to take one example, pledge 5 means
that if anyone in the Party is accused of antisemitism, however
frivolously, then nobody is allowed to speak up for them or defend them
on pain of being suspended or expelled.
No, it says if supporting anybody who has been suspended or expelled. Not 'just' accused.
Peter Walker wrote:
I'd love to see the letter but it is behind the FT paywall, perhaps
available elsewhere<?>.
As so often the case, don't try to find the link you want, but find a
link that links to that link, then follow it ...
<https://www.facebook.com/shahidul.alam001/posts/httpswwwftcomcontent6a 506d98-40a0-48e7-8e98-2882beb30914/10163107027545152/>
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in news:m6u79lF6304U2@mid.individual.net:
Peter Walker wrote:
I'd love to see the letter but it is behind the FT paywall, perhaps
available elsewhere<?>.
As so often the case, don't try to find the link you want, but find a
link that links to that link, then follow it ...
<https://www.facebook.com/shahidul.alam001/posts/httpswwwftcomcontent6a
506d98-40a0-48e7-8e98-2882beb30914/10163107027545152/>
Sadly that forwards only to the original post containing the FT paywall
link but without disclosing the content. Removing the post ref suffix returns, "This content isn't available at the moment".
Have done my best at searching as per your suggestions but all pages
contain links that resolve to FT and their paywall.
For an open letter it's proving b'ldy hard to get access to. FT was hardly
an accessible choice for them to mak. But hey, we got the exclusive, who cares if nobody else can read it. . . .
On 2025-04-24, Peter Walker <not@for.mail> wrote:
For an open letter it's proving b'ldy hard to get access to. FT was
hardly an accessible choice for them to mak. But hey, we got the
exclusive, who cares if nobody else can read it. . . .
https://archive.ph/QQrCc
On the protest marches against Israel's actions in Gaza there are always large contingents of Jews marching under Jews for Justice for
Palestinians.
On 24/04/2025 12:48, RJH wrote:
On 24 Apr 2025 at 10:23:19 BST, The Todal wrote:
Here are the pledges - which were accepted by Starmer without argument.
https://bod.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/ten-pledges.jpg
It might look uncontroversial. But to take one example, pledge 5 means
that if anyone in the Party is accused of antisemitism, however
frivolously, then nobody is allowed to speak up for them or defend them
on pain of being suspended or expelled.
No, it says if supporting anybody who has been suspended or expelled. Not
'just' accused.
Anyone who is accused of antisemitism in the Labour Party is immediately suspended. That has been the procedure even in Corbyn's time. It is a procedure that isn't controlled by the party leader himself.
You will notice that one of the edicts/pledges was that neither Ken Livingstone nor Jackie Walker can be re-admitted to the Labour Party.
Neither of them is or was antisemitic. Jackie Walker was expelled for bringing the party into disrepute. Effectively this was for complaining
that those who criticise Israel's policies are being suspended or
expelled. At no point did she say anything antisemitic. Her story is in
a documentary called Witchhunt, which obviously criticises the Labour
Party and therefore brings the party "into disrepute" by telling the
truth about the purges and the influence of the Israeli public relations department.
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.facebook.com/shahidul.alam001/posts/httpswwwftcomcontent6a
506d98-40a0-48e7-8e98-2882beb30914/10163107027545152/>
Sadly that forwards only to the original post containing the FT paywall
link
but without disclosing the content. Removing the post ref suffixWe write as representatives of the British Jewish community, out of love for Israel and deep concern for its future.
returns, "This content isn't available at the moment".
Have done my best at searching as per your suggestions but all pages
contain links that resolve to FT and their paywall.
For an open letter it's proving b'ldy hard to get access to. FT was hardly
an accessible choice for them to mak. But hey, we got the exclusive, who cares if nobody else can read it. . . .
On 24/04/2025 15:23, Peter Walker wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.facebook.com/shahidul.alam001/posts/httpswwwftcomcontent
6a 506d98-40a0-48e7-8e98-2882beb30914/10163107027545152/>
Sadly that forwards only to the original post containing the FT
paywall link
For me if I follow that link, I get to facebook, and if I click the FT
link on the facebook page, it bypasses the paywall
but without disclosing the content. Removing the post ref suffix
returns, "This content isn't available at the moment".
Have done my best at searching as per your suggestions but all pages
contain links that resolve to FT and their paywall.
For an open letter it's proving b'ldy hard to get access to. FT was
hardly an accessible choice for them to mak. But hey, we got the
exclusive, who cares if nobody else can read it. . . .
Andy Burns wrote:I was using firefox, I've never really understood what magic combination
For me if I follow that link, I get to facebook, and if I click the FT
link on the facebook page, it bypasses the paywall
Trying again it works on Chrome but not on an agressively ad blocked
Firefox.
On 4/23/25 23:13, The Todal wrote:
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British
Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the
conflict (aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether
Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of-uk-
jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews are
facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter criticising
Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the 18-
month- old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that all 36
signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints procedure” >> after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the Financial
Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent”
over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”, they said. >>
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is
happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up
and to speak out.”
Unfortunately war is a blunt instrument.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the true
horrors of Oct 7.
The IDF unlike Hamas investigate and prosecute cases of them attacking non-combatants.
Israel has my vote of confidence.
On 4/23/25 23:13, The Todal wrote:
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British
Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the conflict
(aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether
Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of-uk-
jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews are
facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter criticising
Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the 18-month-
old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that all 36
signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints procedure” >> after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the Financial
Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent”
over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”, they said. >>
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is
happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up and
to speak out.”
Unfortunately war is a blunt instrument.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the true
horrors of Oct 7.
The IDF unlike Hamas investigate and prosecute cases of them attacking non-combatants.
Israel has my vote of confidence.
On 24/04/2025 15:23, Peter Walker wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.facebook.com/shahidul.alam001/posts/httpswwwftcomcontent6a
506d98-40a0-48e7-8e98-2882beb30914/10163107027545152/>
Sadly that forwards only to the original post containing the FT paywall
link
For me if I follow that link, I get to facebook, and if I click the FT
link on the facebook page, it bypasses the paywall
but without disclosing the content. Removing the post ref suffix
returns, "This content isn't available at the moment".
Have done my best at searching as per your suggestions but all pages
contain links that resolve to FT and their paywall.
For an open letter it's proving b'ldy hard to get access to. FT was
hardly
an accessible choice for them to mak. But hey, we got the exclusive, who
cares if nobody else can read it. . . .
On 26 Apr 2025 at 12:01:41 BST, "J Newman" <jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com> wrote:
On 4/23/25 23:13, The Todal wrote:
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British
Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the conflict >>> (aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether
Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about that. >>>
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of-uk-
jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews are
facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter criticising
Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the 18-month-
old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that all 36
signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints procedure” >>> after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the Financial
Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent” >>> over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”, they said. >>>
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is
happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up and >>> to speak out.”
Unfortunately war is a blunt instrument.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the true
horrors of Oct 7.
The IDF unlike Hamas investigate and prosecute cases of them attacking
non-combatants.
Israel has my vote of confidence.
That's good. You're ok with the torture of prisoners as vengeance to I suppose?
On 4/23/25 23:13, The Todal wrote:
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British
Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the
conflict (aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether
Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of-uk-
jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews are
facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter criticising
Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the 18-
month- old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that all 36
signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints procedure” >> after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the Financial
Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent”
over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”, they said. >>
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is
happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up
and to speak out.”
Unfortunately war is a blunt instrument.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the true
horrors of Oct 7.
The IDF unlike Hamas investigate and prosecute cases of them attacking non-combatants.
Israel has my vote of confidence.
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:
On 4/23/25 23:13, The Todal wrote:
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British
Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the
conflict (aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether
Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about
that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of-uk- jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews are
facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter criticising
Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the 18-
month- old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that all 36
signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints
procedure” after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the Financial
Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent” >>> over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”, they said.
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is
happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up
and to speak out.”
Unfortunately war is a blunt instrument.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
Murder and kidnapping. Hardly any "rape" (though any is despicable of
course) and no torture (the IDF do most of the torturing in the area).
No "worse".
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the true
horrors of Oct 7.
Er, rubbish. There have been plenty of excellent documentaries showing
the true horrors of Oct 7. Your television must have been out of order,
but maybe you can see them on catch-up.
On 26/04/2025 02:59 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:
On 4/23/25 23:13, The Todal wrote:
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British
Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the
conflict (aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether
Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about
that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of-
uk- jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews are
facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter criticising
Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the 18-
month- old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that all 36
signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints
procedure” after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the Financial
Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent” >>>> over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”, they said.
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is >>>> happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up
and to speak out.”
Unfortunately war is a blunt instrument.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
Murder and kidnapping. Hardly any "rape" (though any is despicable of
course) and no torture (the IDF do most of the torturing in the area).
No "worse".
Not even the subjecting of Israeli parents to viewing the appalling
torture and murder of their own children?
And is rape somehow "OK" as long as there weren't too many of them (and
who defined "too many")?
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the true
horrors of Oct 7.
I believe that to be true.
Er, rubbish. There have been plenty of excellent documentaries showing
the true horrors of Oct 7. Your television must have been out of order,
but maybe you can see them on catch-up.
I have not seen anything on TV to compare with written reports of that
day's happenings. Which TV programmes do you mean?
On 26/04/2025 19:21, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 02:59 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:
On 4/23/25 23:13, The Todal wrote:
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British >>>>> Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the
conflict (aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether
Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about
that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of-
uk- jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews are >>>>> facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter criticising
Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the 18-
month- old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that all 36 >>>>> signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints
procedure” after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the Financial
Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent” >>>>> over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”, they said.
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is >>>>> happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up >>>>> and to speak out.”
Unfortunately war is a blunt instrument.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
Murder and kidnapping. Hardly any "rape" (though any is despicable of
course) and no torture (the IDF do most of the torturing in the area).
No "worse".
Not even the subjecting of Israeli parents to viewing the appalling
torture and murder of their own children?
I have no idea what event, or video footage, you are referring to. Maybe
you had a nightmare and woke up, firmly believing it to be true.
However, bombing refugee camps and letting the parents of dead and
mutilated children try hopelessly to get medical attention from bombed hospitals, is a war crime by Israel as bad as anything the Nazis did.
And is rape somehow "OK" as long as there weren't too many of them
(and who defined "too many")?
Are you somehow "ok" or are you going to garble everything I say today?
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the true
horrors of Oct 7.
I believe that to be true.
And perhaps you also believe that the dead Pope is God's representative
on Earth. I'm afraid your belief system is unconvincing.
Er, rubbish. There have been plenty of excellent documentaries showing
the true horrors of Oct 7. Your television must have been out of order,
but maybe you can see them on catch-up.
I have not seen anything on TV to compare with written reports of that
day's happenings. Which TV programmes do you mean?
You could begin with
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0023b3m/surviving-october-7th-we-will-dance-again
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/one-day-in-october
Take great care not to click on any of the other documentaries about the slaughter of civilians in Gaza, because they might spoil your evening.
On 26/04/2025 07:49 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 19:21, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 02:59 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:
On 4/23/25 23:13, The Todal wrote:
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British >>>>>> Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the
conflict (aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether >>>>>> Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about >>>>>> that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of- >>>>>> uk- jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews are >>>>>> facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter criticising >>>>>> Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the 18-
month- old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that all 36 >>>>>> signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints
procedure” after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the Financial >>>>>> Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent” >>>>>> over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”, they said.
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is >>>>>> happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up >>>>>> and to speak out.”
Unfortunately war is a blunt instrument.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
Murder and kidnapping. Hardly any "rape" (though any is despicable of
course) and no torture (the IDF do most of the torturing in the area). >>>>
No "worse".
Not even the subjecting of Israeli parents to viewing the appalling
torture and murder of their own children?
I have no idea what event, or video footage, you are referring to. Maybe
you had a nightmare and woke up, firmly believing it to be true.
However, bombing refugee camps and letting the parents of dead and
mutilated children try hopelessly to get medical attention from bombed
hospitals, is a war crime by Israel as bad as anything the Nazis did.
And is rape somehow "OK" as long as there weren't too many of them
(and who defined "too many")?
Are you somehow "ok" or are you going to garble everything I say today?
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the true >>>>> horrors of Oct 7.
I believe that to be true.
And perhaps you also believe that the dead Pope is God's representative
on Earth. I'm afraid your belief system is unconvincing.
Er, rubbish. There have been plenty of excellent documentaries showing >>>> the true horrors of Oct 7. Your television must have been out of order, >>>> but maybe you can see them on catch-up.
I have not seen anything on TV to compare with written reports of that
day's happenings. Which TV programmes do you mean?
You could begin with
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0023b3m/surviving-october-7th-
we-will-dance-again
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/one-day-in-october
Take great care not to click on any of the other documentaries about the
slaughter of civilians in Gaza, because they might spoil your evening.
No. Neither the BBC nor Channel Four will have shown or described the
October atrocities in detail. And you know that this is because they
would be putting themselves at risk (among other reasons).
For that reason, I have not clicked your suggested URLs.
On 26/04/2025 22:59, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 07:49 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 19:21, JNugent wrote:
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the true >>>>>> horrors of Oct 7.
I believe that to be true.
And perhaps you also believe that the dead Pope is God's representative
on Earth. I'm afraid your belief system is unconvincing.
Er, rubbish. There have been plenty of excellent documentaries showing >>>>> the true horrors of Oct 7. Your television must have been out of
order,
but maybe you can see them on catch-up.
I have not seen anything on TV to compare with written reports of that >>>> day's happenings. Which TV programmes do you mean?
You could begin with
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0023b3m/surviving-october-7th-
we-will-dance-again
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/one-day-in-october
Take great care not to click on any of the other documentaries about the >>> slaughter of civilians in Gaza, because they might spoil your evening.
No. Neither the BBC nor Channel Four will have shown or described the
October atrocities in detail. And you know that this is because they
would be putting themselves at risk (among other reasons).
For that reason, I have not clicked your suggested URLs.
By not seeing the reputable documentaries you can, if you like, make up
your own narrative about horrendous rapes, mutilations, burning of
people alive, babies impaled on bayonets.
You are limited only by the power of your imagination.
On 26/04/2025 23:24, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 22:59, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 07:49 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 19:21, JNugent wrote:
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the true >>>>>>> horrors of Oct 7.
I believe that to be true.
And perhaps you also believe that the dead Pope is God's representative >>>> on Earth. I'm afraid your belief system is unconvincing.
Er, rubbish. There have been plenty of excellent documentaries showing >>>>>> the true horrors of Oct 7. Your television must have been out of
order,
but maybe you can see them on catch-up.
I have not seen anything on TV to compare with written reports of that >>>>> day's happenings. Which TV programmes do you mean?
You could begin with
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0023b3m/surviving-october-7th-
we-will-dance-again
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/one-day-in-october
Take great care not to click on any of the other documentaries about the >>>> slaughter of civilians in Gaza, because they might spoil your evening.
No. Neither the BBC nor Channel Four will have shown or described the
October atrocities in detail. And you know that this is because they
would be putting themselves at risk (among other reasons).
For that reason, I have not clicked your suggested URLs.
By not seeing the reputable documentaries you can, if you like, make up
your own narrative about horrendous rapes, mutilations, burning of
people alive, babies impaled on bayonets.
You are limited only by the power of your imagination.
Apologies - I really should try to be more helpful when someone is
displaying their ignorance.
The footage in these documentaries is genuine footage taken by Hamas terrorists, by youngsters attending the music festival, by the people
living in the kibbutz, by CCTV cameras. Also by IDF or police who
visited the sites soon after the murders.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I opposed the
war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the
attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed myself to
dance to Hamas's tune.
On 26/04/2025 23:24, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 22:59, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 07:49 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 19:21, JNugent wrote:
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the >>>>>>> true
horrors of Oct 7.
I believe that to be true.
And perhaps you also believe that the dead Pope is God's representative >>>> on Earth. I'm afraid your belief system is unconvincing.
Er, rubbish. There have been plenty of excellent documentaries
showing
the true horrors of Oct 7. Your television must have been out of
order,
but maybe you can see them on catch-up.
I have not seen anything on TV to compare with written reports of that >>>>> day's happenings. Which TV programmes do you mean?
You could begin with
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0023b3m/surviving-october-7th- we-will-dance-again
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/one-day-in-october
Take great care not to click on any of the other documentaries about
the
slaughter of civilians in Gaza, because they might spoil your evening.
No. Neither the BBC nor Channel Four will have shown or described the
October atrocities in detail. And you know that this is because they
would be putting themselves at risk (among other reasons).
For that reason, I have not clicked your suggested URLs.
By not seeing the reputable documentaries you can, if you like, make
up your own narrative about horrendous rapes, mutilations, burning of
people alive, babies impaled on bayonets.
You are limited only by the power of your imagination.
Apologies - I really should try to be more helpful when someone is
displaying their ignorance.
The footage in these documentaries is genuine footage taken by Hamas terrorists, by youngsters attending the music festival, by the people
living in the kibbutz, by CCTV cameras. Also by IDF or police who
visited the sites soon after the murders.
On 26/04/2025 22:59, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 07:49 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 19:21, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 02:59 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:
On 4/23/25 23:13, The Todal wrote:
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all British >>>>>>> Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the
conflict (aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether >>>>>>> Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about >>>>>>> that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of- >>>>>>> uk- jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews >>>>>>> are facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter
criticising Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the 18- >>>>>>> month- old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that
all 36 signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints >>>>>>> procedure” after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the Financial >>>>>>> Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent”
over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”, they >>>>>>> said.
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is >>>>>>> happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up >>>>>>> and to speak out.”
Unfortunately war is a blunt instrument.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the >>>>>> peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
Murder and kidnapping. Hardly any "rape" (though any is despicable of >>>>> course) and no torture (the IDF do most of the torturing in the area). >>>>> No "worse".
Not even the subjecting of Israeli parents to viewing the appalling
torture and murder of their own children?
I have no idea what event, or video footage, you are referring to. Maybe >>> you had a nightmare and woke up, firmly believing it to be true.
However, bombing refugee camps and letting the parents of dead and
mutilated children try hopelessly to get medical attention from bombed
hospitals, is a war crime by Israel as bad as anything the Nazis did.
And is rape somehow "OK" as long as there weren't too many of them
(and who defined "too many")?
Are you somehow "ok" or are you going to garble everything I say today?
To this day our civilised Western appetites have been spared the true >>>>>> horrors of Oct 7.
I believe that to be true.
And perhaps you also believe that the dead Pope is God's representative
on Earth. I'm afraid your belief system is unconvincing.
Er, rubbish. There have been plenty of excellent documentaries showing >>>>> the true horrors of Oct 7. Your television must have been out of
order, but maybe you can see them on catch-up.
I have not seen anything on TV to compare with written reports of that >>>> day's happenings. Which TV programmes do you mean?
You could begin with
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0023b3m/surviving-october-7th-
we-will-dance-again
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/one-day-in-october
Take great care not to click on any of the other documentaries about the >>> slaughter of civilians in Gaza, because they might spoil your evening.
No. Neither the BBC nor Channel Four will have shown or described the
October atrocities in detail. And you know that this is because they
would be putting themselves at risk (among other reasons).
For that reason, I have not clicked your suggested URLs.
By not seeing the reputable documentaries you can, if you like, make up
your own narrative about horrendous rapes, mutilations, burning of
people alive, babies impaled on bayonets.
You are limited only by the power of your imagination.
On 26/04/2025 11:24 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 22:59, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 07:49 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 19:21, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 02:59 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:
On 4/23/25 23:13, The Todal wrote:
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all
British
Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the >>>>>>>> conflict (aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether >>>>>>>> Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong about >>>>>>>> that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of- >>>>>>>> uk- jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews >>>>>>>> are facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter
criticising Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the 18- >>>>>>>> month- old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that >>>>>>>> all 36 signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints >>>>>>>> procedure” after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the Financial >>>>>>>> Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or remain >>>>>>>> silent”
over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”, they >>>>>>>> said.
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as >>>>>>>> what is
happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to
stand up
and to speak out.”
Unfortunately war is a blunt instrument.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the >>>>>>> peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
Murder and kidnapping. Hardly any "rape" (though any is despicable of >>>>>> course) and no torture (the IDF do most of the torturing in the
area).
No "worse".
Not even the subjecting of Israeli parents to viewing the appalling
torture and murder of their own children?
I have no idea what event, or video footage, you are referring to.
Maybe
you had a nightmare and woke up, firmly believing it to be true.
However, bombing refugee camps and letting the parents of dead and
mutilated children try hopelessly to get medical attention from bombed >>>> hospitals, is a war crime by Israel as bad as anything the Nazis did.
And is rape somehow "OK" as long as there weren't too many of them
(and who defined "too many")?
Are you somehow "ok" or are you going to garble everything I say today?
You said "Hardly any rape".
It's still there, above.
What number of rapes would have been just too many, tipping you over the
edge into mild dissatisfaction?
Or do you take the civilised view that one would have been one too many?
On 26/04/2025 23:24, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 22:59, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 07:49 PM, The Todal wrote:
You could begin with
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0023b3m/surviving-october-7th-
we-will-dance-again
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/one-day-in-october
Take great care not to click on any of the other documentaries about the >>>> slaughter of civilians in Gaza, because they might spoil your evening.
No. Neither the BBC nor Channel Four will have shown or described the
October atrocities in detail. And you know that this is because they
would be putting themselves at risk (among other reasons).
For that reason, I have not clicked your suggested URLs.
By not seeing the reputable documentaries you can, if you like, make up
your own narrative about horrendous rapes, mutilations, burning of
people alive, babies impaled on bayonets.
You are limited only by the power of your imagination.
Apologies - I really should try to be more helpful when someone is
displaying their ignorance.
On 2025-04-26, The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 26/04/2025 23:24, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 22:59, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 07:49 PM, The Todal wrote:
You could begin withNo. Neither the BBC nor Channel Four will have shown or described the
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0023b3m/surviving-october-7th- >>>>> we-will-dance-again
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/one-day-in-october
Take great care not to click on any of the other documentaries about the >>>>> slaughter of civilians in Gaza, because they might spoil your evening. >>>>
October atrocities in detail. And you know that this is because they
would be putting themselves at risk (among other reasons).
For that reason, I have not clicked your suggested URLs.
By not seeing the reputable documentaries you can, if you like, make up
your own narrative about horrendous rapes, mutilations, burning of
people alive, babies impaled on bayonets.
You are limited only by the power of your imagination.
Apologies - I really should try to be more helpful when someone is
displaying their ignorance.
I must admit I do particularly love JNugent's statement that he will not
view the videos because he knows he is right and therefore he refuses to
look at any evidence that might prove him wrong.
On 27/04/2025 09:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I opposed
the war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the
attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed myself
to dance to Hamas's tune.
One major flaw in Israel's moral compass is that we can all (most of
us) agree that the Hamas terrorists, and also perhaps some
opportunists who followed them from Gaza, are murdering scum and
deserve no pity.
But that cannot excuse the slaughter of ordinary non-combatant
civilians. We can pretend that all males of military age are likely to
be potential terrorists but that leaves huge numbers of elderly men
and women, plus mothers and children. And the staff of hospitals. And ambulance paramedics.
To blithely say "yes, war is nasty, these casualties were all
unavoidable collateral damage, and hey, nobody complained when the RAF
were bombing Germany so what's your problem with Gaza?" is to abandon
the standards of civilised humane behaviour.
And currently Israel is not only continuing to bomb tents and
residential buildings, but is blocking aid and food and thereby
starving the civilian population. However I think Trump supports
everything that Israel is doing.
On 27/04/2025 11:34, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 11:24 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 22:59, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 07:49 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 19:21, JNugent wrote:
On 26/04/2025 02:59 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:
On 4/23/25 23:13, The Todal wrote:
The Board would like it to be assumed that it speaks for all >>>>>>>>> British
Jews and that British Jews all share the same opinion about the >>>>>>>>> conflict (aka genocide) in Gaza.
But now there's a split. And I think most people in the UK whether >>>>>>>>> Jewish or not, would probably support the 36. Maybe I'm wrong >>>>>>>>> about
that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/dozens-of-members-of- >>>>>>>>>
uk-
jewish-body-facing-disciplinary-action-over-criticism-of-israel
quote
Three dozen members of the largest body representing British Jews >>>>>>>>> are facing disciplinary action after signing an open letter
criticising Israel over the war in Gaza.
Amid signs of deepening divisions among British Jews over the 18- >>>>>>>>> month- old war, the Board of Deputies announced this week that >>>>>>>>> all 36 signatories to the letter were now “subject to a complaints >>>>>>>>> procedure” after “multiple complaints”.
The signatories to the letter, which was published by the
Financial Times, said they could no longer “turn a blind eye or >>>>>>>>> remain silent” over the war in Gaza. “Israel’s soul is being >>>>>>>>> ripped out”, they said.
They added: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as >>>>>>>>> what is happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel >>>>>>>>> us to stand up and to speak out.”
Unfortunately war is a blunt instrument.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the >>>>>>>> peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
Murder and kidnapping. Hardly any "rape" (though any is
despicable of course) and no torture (the IDF do most of the torturing >>>>>>> in the area).
No "worse".
Not even the subjecting of Israeli parents to viewing the appalling >>>>>> torture and murder of their own children?
I have no idea what event, or video footage, you are referring to.
Maybe you had a nightmare and woke up, firmly believing it to be true. >>>>> However, bombing refugee camps and letting the parents of dead and
mutilated children try hopelessly to get medical attention from bombed >>>>> hospitals, is a war crime by Israel as bad as anything the Nazis did.
And is rape somehow "OK" as long as there weren't too many of them >>>>>> (and who defined "too many")?
Are you somehow "ok" or are you going to garble everything I say
today?
You said "Hardly any rape".
It's still there, above.
What number of rapes would have been just too many, tipping you over
the edge into mild dissatisfaction?
Or do you take the civilised view that one would have been one too many?
I think you seem to be struggling with your own personal prejudices and
it is you who sees rape as acceptable if done in moderation.
Read what I say with more attention.
I said "hardly any rape (though any is despicable of course)".
That is
because reputable sources have now said that there were only a tiny
number of rape events on 7th October. Even female hostages have not complained of rape. Rape is obviously a propaganda tool on occasions of
this sort.
And you respond with "is rape somehow ok as long as there weren't too
many of them?"
Is that really the thought that went through your mind?
It makes me
wonder whether you actually have raped people. I don't think I would
want you to meet any woman without a chaperone being present.
On 27/04/2025 12:02 PM, The Todal wrote:
Read what I say with more attention.
I said "hardly any rape (though any is despicable of course)".
I would always expect the second part of that as a modifier.
But "hardly any rape" is a comparative statement and is exactly what you
said (wrote).
Tell me - how many rapes coumnt as "hardly any" and at what point would
the number count as more than "hardly any"?
That is
because reputable sources have now said that there were only a tiny
number of rape events on 7th October. Even female hostages have not
complained of rape. Rape is obviously a propaganda tool on occasions of
this sort.
So "only a tiny number (WTMB) is acceptable, is it?
On 4/27/25 16:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:Good lord I really hope you guys are not making the decisions if I ever
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I opposed
the war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the
attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed myself to
dance to Hamas's tune.
get kidnapped, raped and held hostage by a bunch of barbarians.
I'd expect my government to do nothing less than what the Israelis are
doing - launching a full scale war to try to free me & others, and
eradicate the terrorists.
I quite understand the distinction between a non-combatant and a
terrorist. Non-combatant deaths are of course regrettable.
But don't forget these terrorists do not follow the rules of war, and masquerade as medics/journalists/etc.
Hamas can stop the war today if they give up the hostages and surrender.
On 4/27/25 16:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:Good lord I really hope you guys are not making the decisions if I ever
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I opposed the
war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the
attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed myself to
dance to Hamas's tune.
get kidnapped, raped and held hostage by a bunch of barbarians.
I'd expect my government to do nothing less than what the Israelis are
doing - launching a full scale war to try to free me & others, and
eradicate the terrorists.
I quite understand the distinction between a non-combatant and a
terrorist. Non-combatant deaths are of course regrettable.
But don't forget these terrorists do not follow the rules of war, and masquerade as medics/journalists/etc.
Hamas can stop the war today if they give up the hostages and surrender.
On 27 Apr 2025 at 18:06:11 BST, "J Newman" <jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com> wrote:
On 4/27/25 16:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:Good lord I really hope you guys are not making the decisions if I ever
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I opposed the >>> war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the
attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed myself to
dance to Hamas's tune.
get kidnapped, raped and held hostage by a bunch of barbarians.
I'd expect my government to do nothing less than what the Israelis are
doing - launching a full scale war to try to free me & others, and
eradicate the terrorists.
I quite understand the distinction between a non-combatant and a
terrorist. Non-combatant deaths are of course regrettable.
But don't forget these terrorists do not follow the rules of war, and
masquerade as medics/journalists/etc.
Shocking! I understand many of them actually masquerade as UN officials and even as babies. It is horrifying what these amoral untermenschen get up to! Why not try carpet bombing - death camps on Trump's new Riviera would look bad?
On 27/04/2025 20:31, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Apr 2025 at 18:06:11 BST, "J Newman" <jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 4/27/25 16:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:Good lord I really hope you guys are not making the decisions if I ever
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the
peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I opposed the >>>> war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the
attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed myself to >>>> dance to Hamas's tune.
get kidnapped, raped and held hostage by a bunch of barbarians.
I'd expect my government to do nothing less than what the Israelis are
doing - launching a full scale war to try to free me & others, and
eradicate the terrorists.
I quite understand the distinction between a non-combatant and a
terrorist. Non-combatant deaths are of course regrettable.
But don't forget these terrorists do not follow the rules of war, and
masquerade as medics/journalists/etc.
Shocking! I understand many of them actually masquerade as UN officials and >> even as babies. It is horrifying what these amoral untermenschen get up to! >> Why not try carpet bombing - death camps on Trump's new Riviera would look >> bad?
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 27/04/2025 20:31, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Apr 2025 at 18:06:11 BST, "J Newman" <jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com> >>> wrote:
On 4/27/25 16:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:Good lord I really hope you guys are not making the decisions if I ever >>>> get kidnapped, raped and held hostage by a bunch of barbarians.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the >>>>>> peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I opposed the >>>>> war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the
attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed myself to >>>>> dance to Hamas's tune.
I'd expect my government to do nothing less than what the Israelis are >>>> doing - launching a full scale war to try to free me & others, and
eradicate the terrorists.
I quite understand the distinction between a non-combatant and a
terrorist. Non-combatant deaths are of course regrettable.
But don't forget these terrorists do not follow the rules of war, and
masquerade as medics/journalists/etc.
Shocking! I understand many of them actually masquerade as UN officials and >>> even as babies. It is horrifying what these amoral untermenschen get up to! >>> Why not try carpet bombing - death camps on Trump's new Riviera would look >>> bad?
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The
Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians plucked an obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family land
in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new terror group
to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations in the area refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The >>Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians plucked
an
obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family land
in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new terror group
to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations in the area >refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
On 02/05/2025 in message <vv10gu$3og6l$1@dont-email.me> Brian wrote:
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The
Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians plucked an
That is not what the BBC says:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567
On 02/05/2025 in message <vv10gu$3og6l$1@dont-email.me> Brian wrote:
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The
Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians plucked an
obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family
land in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new terror
group to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations in the >> area refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
That is not what the BBC says:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 27/04/2025 20:31, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Apr 2025 at 18:06:11 BST, "J Newman" <jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com> >>> wrote:
On 4/27/25 16:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:Good lord I really hope you guys are not making the decisions if I ever >>>> get kidnapped, raped and held hostage by a bunch of barbarians.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the >>>>>> peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I opposed the >>>>> war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the
attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed myself to >>>>> dance to Hamas's tune.
I'd expect my government to do nothing less than what the Israelis are >>>> doing - launching a full scale war to try to free me & others, and
eradicate the terrorists.
I quite understand the distinction between a non-combatant and a
terrorist. Non-combatant deaths are of course regrettable.
But don't forget these terrorists do not follow the rules of war, and
masquerade as medics/journalists/etc.
Shocking! I understand many of them actually masquerade as UN officials and >>> even as babies. It is horrifying what these amoral untermenschen get up to! >>> Why not try carpet bombing - death camps on Trump's new Riviera would look >>> bad?
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The
Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians plucked an obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family land
in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new terror group
to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations in the area refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
On 02/05/2025 00:35, Brian wrote:
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 27/04/2025 20:31, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Apr 2025 at 18:06:11 BST, "J Newman"
<jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 4/27/25 16:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:Good lord I really hope you guys are not making the decisions if I
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the >>>>>>> peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse. >>>>>>I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I
opposed the
war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the >>>>>> attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed
myself to
dance to Hamas's tune.
ever
get kidnapped, raped and held hostage by a bunch of barbarians.
I'd expect my government to do nothing less than what the Israelis are >>>>> doing - launching a full scale war to try to free me & others, and
eradicate the terrorists.
I quite understand the distinction between a non-combatant and a
terrorist. Non-combatant deaths are of course regrettable.
But don't forget these terrorists do not follow the rules of war, and >>>>> masquerade as medics/journalists/etc.
Shocking! I understand many of them actually masquerade as UN
officials and
even as babies. It is horrifying what these amoral untermenschen get
up to!
Why not try carpet bombing - death camps on Trump's new Riviera
would look
bad?
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The
Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians plucked an
obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family
land
in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new terror
group
to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations in the
area
refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
Are you saying that today's Jews (none of them thousands of years old,
none of them holding title deeds to land on the West Bank or Gaza)
should be entitled to evict Palestinians and take over their land?
On 02/05/2025 09:55 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 02/05/2025 in message <vv10gu$3og6l$1@dont-email.me> Brian wrote:
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The >>>>Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and >>>>more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians plucked >>>an
obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family >>>land in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new terror >>>group to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations in >>>the
area refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
The last bit is factually correct. How important and relevant it might be
is a matter for debate.
That is not what the BBC says:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567
That article does not address the (political / ethnic) history of the
region at all. And certainly makes no comment upon what was happening
(say) 2000-3000 years ago.
On 02/05/2025 in message <m7k5fiFm1jhU5@mid.individual.net> JNugent wrote:
On 02/05/2025 09:55 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 02/05/2025 in message <vv10gu$3og6l$1@dont-email.me> Brian wrote:
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about
The Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more >>>>> and more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians
plucked an obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim >>>> on family land in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form >>>> a new terror group to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the
Arab Nations in the area refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
The last bit is factually correct. How important and relevant it might
be is a matter for debate.
That is not what the BBC says:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567
That article does not address the (political / ethnic) history of the
region at all. And certainly makes no comment upon what was happening
(say) 2000-3000 years ago.
The BBC didn't exist then and there are no extant legal books.
What is
known is that Palestine was occupied by Palestinians for a thousand
years before Israel invaded and started turfing them out.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
On 2 May 2025 at 00:35:58 BST, "Brian" <noinv@lid.org> wrote:
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 27/04/2025 20:31, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Apr 2025 at 18:06:11 BST, "J Newman" <jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com> >>>> wrote:
On 4/27/25 16:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:Good lord I really hope you guys are not making the decisions if I ever >>>>> get kidnapped, raped and held hostage by a bunch of barbarians.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the >>>>>>> peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse. >>>>>>I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I opposed the >>>>>> war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the >>>>>> attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed myself to >>>>>> dance to Hamas's tune.
I'd expect my government to do nothing less than what the Israelis are >>>>> doing - launching a full scale war to try to free me & others, and
eradicate the terrorists.
I quite understand the distinction between a non-combatant and a
terrorist. Non-combatant deaths are of course regrettable.
But don't forget these terrorists do not follow the rules of war, and >>>>> masquerade as medics/journalists/etc.
Shocking! I understand many of them actually masquerade as UN officials and
even as babies. It is horrifying what these amoral untermenschen get up to!
Why not try carpet bombing - death camps on Trump's new Riviera would look >>>> bad?
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The
Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians plucked an
obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family land >> in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new terror group >> to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations in the area >> refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
How do you explain the British mandate for Palestine in the 1920s then?
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
By my recollection, Mohammed lived a fair number of years ago now.
On 02/05/2025 05:15 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
The BBC didn't exist then and there are no extant legal books.
???
Why would that matter?
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 27/04/2025 20:31, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Apr 2025 at 18:06:11 BST, "J Newman" <jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com> >>> wrote:
On 4/27/25 16:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:Good lord I really hope you guys are not making the decisions if I ever >>>> get kidnapped, raped and held hostage by a bunch of barbarians.
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the >>>>>> peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse.
I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I opposed the >>>>> war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the
attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed myself to >>>>> dance to Hamas's tune.
I'd expect my government to do nothing less than what the Israelis are >>>> doing - launching a full scale war to try to free me & others, and
eradicate the terrorists.
I quite understand the distinction between a non-combatant and a
terrorist. Non-combatant deaths are of course regrettable.
But don't forget these terrorists do not follow the rules of war, and
masquerade as medics/journalists/etc.
Shocking! I understand many of them actually masquerade as UN officials and >>> even as babies. It is horrifying what these amoral untermenschen get up to! >>> Why not try carpet bombing - death camps on Trump's new Riviera would look >>> bad?
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The
Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians plucked an obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family land
in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new terror group
to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations in the area refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
On 02/05/2025 09:55 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 02/05/2025 in message <vv10gu$3og6l$1@dont-email.me> Brian wrote:
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The >>>> Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians
plucked an
obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family
land in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new
terror
group to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations
in the
area refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
The last bit is factually correct. How important and relevant it might
be is a matter for debate.
That is not what the BBC says:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567
That article does not address the (political / ethnic) history of the
region at all. And certainly makes no comment upon what was happening
(say) 2000-3000 years ago.
On 02/05/2025 16:08, JNugent wrote:
On 02/05/2025 09:55 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 02/05/2025 in message <vv10gu$3og6l$1@dont-email.me> Brian wrote:
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about
The
Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and >>>>> more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians
plucked an
obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family
land in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new
terror
group to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations
in the
area refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
The last bit is factually correct. How important and relevant it might
be is a matter for debate.
That is not what the BBC says:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567
That article does not address the (political / ethnic) history of the
region at all. And certainly makes no comment upon what was happening
(say) 2000-3000 years ago.
Is it significant that many jews jumped ship to become muslims, or did muslims suddenly spring up from nowhere?
Should converts immediately lose any right to live in the land their forebears lived on?
On 02/05/2025 00:35, Brian wrote:
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 27/04/2025 20:31, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Apr 2025 at 18:06:11 BST, "J Newman"
<jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 4/27/25 16:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:Good lord I really hope you guys are not making the decisions if I
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the >>>>>>> peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse. >>>>>>I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I
opposed the
war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the >>>>>> attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed
myself to
dance to Hamas's tune.
ever
get kidnapped, raped and held hostage by a bunch of barbarians.
I'd expect my government to do nothing less than what the Israelis are >>>>> doing - launching a full scale war to try to free me & others, and
eradicate the terrorists.
I quite understand the distinction between a non-combatant and a
terrorist. Non-combatant deaths are of course regrettable.
But don't forget these terrorists do not follow the rules of war, and >>>>> masquerade as medics/journalists/etc.
Shocking! I understand many of them actually masquerade as UN
officials and
even as babies. It is horrifying what these amoral untermenschen get
up to!
Why not try carpet bombing - death camps on Trump's new Riviera
would look
bad?
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The
Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians plucked an
obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family
land
in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new terror
group
to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations in the
area
refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
I think you are terribly confused.
It was all unquestionably a Roman province - so Giorgia Meloni gets to
say what happens there now.
(What? You think claiming ownership - based on what happened 2,000
years ago - is a stupid idea?)
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians come to
my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder, the response >will be war?
On 5/2/25 16:09, The Todal wrote:
On 02/05/2025 00:35, Brian wrote:There are Arab Muslims peacefully living in Israel, as well as other minorities, who are not murderous savages. Examples are the Bedouins,
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 27/04/2025 20:31, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 27 Apr 2025 at 18:06:11 BST, "J Newman"
<jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 4/27/25 16:42, GB wrote:
On 26/04/2025 12:01, J Newman wrote:Good lord I really hope you guys are not making the decisions if I >>>>>> ever
What is happening is the expected consequence of Hamas breaking the >>>>>>>> peace on Oct 6 with a campaign of rape, murder, torture and worse. >>>>>>>I am Jewish, and I generally support Israel. Nevertheless, I
opposed the
war in Gaza before it even started.
One reason was that it was obvious that Hamas wanted to provoke the >>>>>>> attack. So, as I am a stubborn SOB, I would not have allowed
myself to
dance to Hamas's tune.
get kidnapped, raped and held hostage by a bunch of barbarians.
I'd expect my government to do nothing less than what the Israelis are >>>>>> doing - launching a full scale war to try to free me & others, and >>>>>> eradicate the terrorists.
I quite understand the distinction between a non-combatant and a
terrorist. Non-combatant deaths are of course regrettable.
But don't forget these terrorists do not follow the rules of war, and >>>>>> masquerade as medics/journalists/etc.
Shocking! I understand many of them actually masquerade as UN
officials and
even as babies. It is horrifying what these amoral untermenschen get >>>>> up to!
Why not try carpet bombing - death camps on Trump's new Riviera
would look
bad?
Everyone should watch the excellent Louis Theroux documentary about The >>>> Settlers, the extremist zionists who are determined to take more and
more Palestinian land.
There were no ‘Palestinians’ until the 1960s when the Russians plucked an
obscure Egyptian, whose father had failed to secure a claim on family
land
in Egypt and decided to try his luck in Israel, to form a new terror
group
to destabilise the Middle East- the PLO. Even the Arab Nations in the
area
refuse to accept so called Palestinians.
The land was Jewish for thousands of years before there was a Muslim.
Are you saying that today's Jews (none of them thousands of years old,
none of them holding title deeds to land on the West Bank or Gaza)
should be entitled to evict Palestinians and take over their land?
That's actually Nazi behaviour. The Nazis evicted Jews from their homes
in Germany and replaced them with Aryans, and confiscated their
property. Whereas the Israelis bulldoze the Palestinians' property.
some Arab Muslim towns like Abu Ghosh and Druze villages like Osfiya.
Hamas is targeted for elimination because they broke the peace on
October 6 with what they did on October 7. Even Hamas' own charter (from
the horse's mouth) calls for the destruction of the Jewish state, while Israel's Declaration of Independence calls for peaceful coexistence.
Quoted here for the anti-Semites:
Hamas Charter (1988) – Calls for Genocide
The original Hamas Charter of 1988 contains explicit calls for the destruction of Israel and harbors antisemitic and genocidal language.
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians come
to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder, the
response will be war?
While I don't doubt Hamas' anti-Israeli motivation, they have not had those charter objectives for some decades now.The teaching material in UNRWA schools up to a couple of years ago
Roger Hayter wrote:
While I don't doubt Hamas' anti-Israeli motivation, they have not had those >> charter objectives for some decades now.The teaching material in UNRWA schools up to a couple of years ago
promoted antisemitism, jihad and violence though ...
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
On 4 May 2025 at 11:42:33 BST, "Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
While I don't doubt Hamas' anti-Israeli motivation, they have not had those >>> charter objectives for some decades now.The teaching material in UNRWA schools up to a couple of years ago
promoted antisemitism, jihad and violence though ...
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace (CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
Andy Burns wrote:I did try to find who funds them nevertheless, the EU seemed to take
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace (CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
if you teach the Christian Old Testament Bible (and,
presumably, cognate Jewish texts) you're going to get some pretty blood-thirsty advice.
Roger Hayter wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:I did try to find who funds them nevertheless, the EU seemed to take
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace >> (CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
their reports as credible, I daresay if the one of our neighbours
produced such material against the UK, some UK-based organisations would report on it ...
On 4 May 2025 at 11:42:33 BST, "Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
While I don't doubt Hamas' anti-Israeli motivation, they have notThe teaching material in UNRWA schools up to a couple of years ago
had those charter objectives for some decades now.
promoted antisemitism, jihad and violence though ...
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of
Peace (CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
On 4 May 2025 at 12:09:58 BST, "Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:I did try to find who funds them nevertheless, the EU seemed to take
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace >>> (CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
their reports as credible, I daresay if the one of our neighbours
produced such material against the UK, some UK-based organisations would
report on it ...
True, but in the 70s and 80s I really wouldn't have gone to the UK government for an objective assessment of the situation in Northern Ireland. I would have
expected it to be one-sided propaganda.
"Roger Hayter" <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
While I don't doubt Hamas' anti-Israeli motivation, they have not had thoseThe teaching material in UNRWA schools up to a couple of years ago
charter objectives for some decades now.
promoted antisemitism, jihad and violence though ...
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace >> (CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
Also, of course, if you teach the Christian Old Testament Bible (and, presumably, cognate Jewish texts) you're going to get some pretty blood-thirsty advice.
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace >>> (CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
I did try to find who funds them nevertheless, the EU seemed to take
their reports as credible, I daresay if the one of our neighbours
produced such material against the UK, some UK-based organisations would
report on it ...
True, but in the 70s and 80s I really wouldn't have gone to the UK government for an objective assessment of the situation in Northern Ireland. I would have
expected it to be one-sided propaganda.
On 04/05/2025 12:00 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
"Roger Hayter" <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
While I don't doubt Hamas' anti-Israeli motivation, they have not had thoseThe teaching material in UNRWA schools up to a couple of years ago
charter objectives for some decades now.
promoted antisemitism, jihad and violence though ...
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace >>> (CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
Also, of course, if you teach the Christian Old Testament Bible (and,
presumably, cognate Jewish texts) you're going to get some pretty
blood-thirsty advice.
The *Christian* Old Testament Bible?
Do you mean the Old Testament as (usually) compiled with the addition of
the New Testament?
On 04/05/2025 12:18 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace
(CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
I did try to find who funds them nevertheless, the EU seemed to take
their reports as credible, I daresay if the one of our neighbours
produced such material against the UK, some UK-based organisations would >>> report on it ...
True, but in the 70s and 80s I really wouldn't have gone to the UK government
for an objective assessment of the situation in Northern Ireland. I would have
expected it to be one-sided propaganda.
The story then would have been the same as it was in the 1960s and is
now. It would have been something along the lines of Northern Ireland [however defined] would remain a part of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland for as long as [a majority of] its people
wished that to continue.
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my fellow
Jews against hatred and antisemitism.
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians come
to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder, the
response will be war?
On 04/05/2025 00:42, J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians come
to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder, the
response will be war?
Why is it so difficult to understand that if you are Palestinian, living peaceably with your family in your home in the West Bank and trying to
make a living as an olive farmer, and then the Zionist settlers come and point guns at you and evict you and bulldoze your home, and the Israeli troops and police stand by and protect the settlers, the response of the civilised world will be that Israel is a nation of barbarians and
savages, an apartheid nation that disregards the rights of Palestinians
and flagrantly breaks international law?
And that this failure to provide citizens with equal treatment under the
law will directly lead to more Hamas recruitment, more terrorism, more
hatred which unfortunately will be directed not only at Israel but to
some extent to Jews in other countries?
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my fellow
Jews against hatred and antisemitism. Go thou and do likewise.
On 04/05/2025 in message <vv69kn$kfop$1@dont-email.me> J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder,
the response will be war?
Not difficult at all as long as the war is with the barbarians.
The objections I have seen raised relate to the slaughter of women,
children and new born babies. It's the 21st century so please don't try
and raise the defences used in World War 2, they just don't cut it now.
On 4 May 2025 at 15:19:34 BST, "JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 04/05/2025 12:00 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
"Roger Hayter" <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
While I don't doubt Hamas' anti-Israeli motivation, they have not had thoseThe teaching material in UNRWA schools up to a couple of years ago
charter objectives for some decades now.
promoted antisemitism, jihad and violence though ...
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace
(CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
Also, of course, if you teach the Christian Old Testament Bible (and,
presumably, cognate Jewish texts) you're going to get some pretty
blood-thirsty advice.
The *Christian* Old Testament Bible?
Do you mean the Old Testament as (usually) compiled with the addition of
the New Testament?
Yes, I just inadvertently missed out "of the"; sorry!
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace
(CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
I did try to find who funds them nevertheless, the EU seemed to take
their reports as credible, I daresay if the one of our neighbours
produced such material against the UK, some UK-based organisations would >>>> report on it ...
True, but in the 70s and 80s I really wouldn't have gone to the UK government
for an objective assessment of the situation in Northern Ireland. I would have
expected it to be one-sided propaganda.
The story then would have been the same as it was in the 1960s and is
now. It would have been something along the lines of Northern Ireland
[however defined] would remain a part of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland for as long as [a majority of] its people
wished that to continue.
That is political decision, not an assessment of the situation!
On 04/05/2025 04:14 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 4 May 2025 at 15:19:34 BST, "JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 04/05/2025 12:00 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
"Roger Hayter" <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
While I don't doubt Hamas' anti-Israeli motivation, they have not had thoseThe teaching material in UNRWA schools up to a couple of years ago >>>>>> promoted antisemitism, jihad and violence though ...
charter objectives for some decades now.
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace
(CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
Also, of course, if you teach the Christian Old Testament Bible (and,
presumably, cognate Jewish texts) you're going to get some pretty
blood-thirsty advice.
The *Christian* Old Testament Bible?
Do you mean the Old Testament as (usually) compiled with the addition of >>> the New Testament?
Yes, I just inadvertently missed out "of the"; sorry!
;-)
On 04/05/2025 04:15 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace
(CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
I did try to find who funds them nevertheless, the EU seemed to take >>>>> their reports as credible, I daresay if the one of our neighbours
produced such material against the UK, some UK-based organisations would >>>>> report on it ...
True, but in the 70s and 80s I really wouldn't have gone to the UK government
for an objective assessment of the situation in Northern Ireland. I would have
expected it to be one-sided propaganda.
The story then would have been the same as it was in the 1960s and is
now. It would have been something along the lines of Northern Ireland
[however defined] would remain a part of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland for as long as [a majority of] its people
wished that to continue.
That is political decision, not an assessment of the situation!
Thinking back to what we know of the political situation in Ireland
between 1918 and 1922, it would be a brave commentator who stated that
the UK government of the day should (or even, realistically, could) have handed the whole island over to a new Dublin administration. There were
those in what is now Northern Ireland who were threatening extreme
organised violence against anyonee with whom they disagreed. Edward
Carson was not only among them but right up in the leadership.
You must have heard of that?
And even by the 1970s and 1980s, there was no reason to believe that the political balance had changed. It might be on the cusp of changing now.
On 04/05/2025 00:42, J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder,
the response will be war?
Why is it so difficult to understand that if you are Palestinian, living peaceably with your family in your home in the West Bank and trying to
make a living as an olive farmer, and then the Zionist settlers come and point guns at you and evict you and bulldoze your home, and the Israeli troops and police stand by and protect the settlers, the response of the civilised world will be that Israel is a nation of barbarians and
savages, an apartheid nation that disregards the rights of Palestinians
and flagrantly breaks international law?
And that this failure to provide citizens with equal treatment under the
law will directly lead to more Hamas recruitment, more terrorism, more
hatred which unfortunately will be directed not only at Israel but to
some extent to Jews in other countries?
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my fellow
Jews against hatred and antisemitism. Go thou and do likewise.
On 5/4/25 18:27, The Todal wrote:
On 04/05/2025 00:42, J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder,
the response will be war?
Why is it so difficult to understand that if you are Palestinian, living
peaceably with your family in your home in the West Bank and trying to
make a living as an olive farmer, and then the Zionist settlers come and
point guns at you and evict you and bulldoze your home, and the Israeli
troops and police stand by and protect the settlers, the response of the
civilised world will be that Israel is a nation of barbarians and
savages, an apartheid nation that disregards the rights of Palestinians
and flagrantly breaks international law?
And that this failure to provide citizens with equal treatment under the
law will directly lead to more Hamas recruitment, more terrorism, more
hatred which unfortunately will be directed not only at Israel but to
some extent to Jews in other countries?
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my fellow
Jews against hatred and antisemitism. Go thou and do likewise.
The problem is that a lot of those kids, ambulances, journalists and
medics are also part time terrorists. So when the IDF kills them, they suddenly become "innocent civilians".
This is a total war situation where one side not only has dispensed with
the Geneva Conventions, they furthermore cynically use it to their
advantage.
Is there any hospital in Gaza where the IDF haven't found a terror base
or weapons stored there?
I'm not saying there are absolutely no non-combatant deaths or innocent casualties, but as I said before this is war, and war is a blunt
instrument. There have been documented audits by respectable third
parties who declared the IDF goes above and beyond what Western
standards might be to preserve life.
“The IDF does more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.” - Col. Richard Kemp
Arab Muslims in Israel have equal rights and can join the IDF if the
wanted to.
Yes it is possible to be Jewish while harbouring anti-Semitic beliefs.
On 5/4/25 18:27, The Todal wrote:
On 04/05/2025 00:42, J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder,
the response will be war?
Why is it so difficult to understand that if you are Palestinian, living
peaceably with your family in your home in the West Bank and trying to
make a living as an olive farmer, and then the Zionist settlers come and
point guns at you and evict you and bulldoze your home, and the Israeli
troops and police stand by and protect the settlers, the response of the
civilised world will be that Israel is a nation of barbarians and
savages, an apartheid nation that disregards the rights of Palestinians
and flagrantly breaks international law?
And that this failure to provide citizens with equal treatment under the
law will directly lead to more Hamas recruitment, more terrorism, more
hatred which unfortunately will be directed not only at Israel but to
some extent to Jews in other countries?
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my fellow
Jews against hatred and antisemitism. Go thou and do likewise.
The problem is that a lot of those kids, ambulances, journalists and
medics are also part time terrorists. So when the IDF kills them, they suddenly become "innocent civilians".
On 5/4/25 18:27, The Todal wrote:
On 04/05/2025 00:42, J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians come >>>to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder, the >>>response will be war?
Why is it so difficult to understand that if you are Palestinian, living >>peaceably with your family in your home in the West Bank and trying to
make a living as an olive farmer, and then the Zionist settlers come and >>point guns at you and evict you and bulldoze your home, and the Israeli >>troops and police stand by and protect the settlers, the response of the >>civilised world will be that Israel is a nation of barbarians and
savages, an apartheid nation that disregards the rights of Palestinians
and flagrantly breaks international law?
And that this failure to provide citizens with equal treatment under the >>law will directly lead to more Hamas recruitment, more terrorism, more >>hatred which unfortunately will be directed not only at Israel but to
some extent to Jews in other countries?
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my fellow >>Jews against hatred and antisemitism. Go thou and do likewise.
The problem is that a lot of those kids, ambulances, journalists and
medics are also part time terrorists. So when the IDF kills them, they >suddenly become "innocent civilians".
This is a total war situation where one side not only has dispensed with
the Geneva Conventions, they furthermore cynically use it to their
advantage.
Is there any hospital in Gaza where the IDF haven't found a terror base or >weapons stored there?
I'm not saying there are absolutely no non-combatant deaths or innocent >casualties, but as I said before this is war, and war is a blunt
instrument. There have been documented audits by respectable third parties >who declared the IDF goes above and beyond what Western standards might be
to preserve life.
“The IDF does more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone >than any other army in the history of warfare.” - Col. Richard Kemp
Arab Muslims in Israel have equal rights and can join the IDF if the
wanted to.
Yes it is possible to be Jewish while harbouring anti-Semitic beliefs.
On 04/05/2025 10:59 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 04/05/2025 in message <vv69kn$kfop$1@dont-email.me> J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder,
the response will be war?
Not difficult at all as long as the war is with the barbarians.
War, unfortunately, is and can never simply be waged against the armed
forces of the enemy state. Especially not when its combatants do not >distinguish themselves from civilians and their bases from civilian >locations.
The objections I have seen raised relate to the slaughter of women, >>children and new born babies. It's the 21st century so please don't try
and raise the defences used in World War 2, they just don't cut it now.
In your opinion, has Israel got any right to defend its population from >attack, whether of the October type or the repeated launching of rockets >aimed as much as, if not more than, at civilian targets? Or should Israel >just have "sucked it up"?
On 04/05/2025 10:59 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 04/05/2025 in message <vv69kn$kfop$1@dont-email.me> J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder,
the response will be war?
Not difficult at all as long as the war is with the barbarians.
War, unfortunately, is and can never simply be waged against the armed
forces of the enemy state. Especially not when its combatants do not distinguish themselves from civilians and their bases from civilian locations.
The objections I have seen raised relate to the slaughter of women,
children and new born babies. It's the 21st century so please don't try
and raise the defences used in World War 2, they just don't cut it now.
In your opinion, has Israel got any right to defend its population from attack, whether of the October type or the repeated launching of rockets aimed as much as, if not more than, at civilian targets? Or should
Israel just have "sucked it up"?
On 5/4/25 18:27, The Todal wrote:
On 04/05/2025 00:42, J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder,
the response will be war?
Why is it so difficult to understand that if you are Palestinian,
living peaceably with your family in your home in the West Bank and
trying to make a living as an olive farmer, and then the Zionist
settlers come and point guns at you and evict you and bulldoze your
home, and the Israeli troops and police stand by and protect the
settlers, the response of the civilised world will be that Israel is a
nation of barbarians and savages, an apartheid nation that disregards
the rights of Palestinians and flagrantly breaks international law?
And that this failure to provide citizens with equal treatment under
the law will directly lead to more Hamas recruitment, more terrorism,
more hatred which unfortunately will be directed not only at Israel
but to some extent to Jews in other countries?
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my
fellow Jews against hatred and antisemitism. Go thou and do likewise.
The problem is that a lot of those kids, ambulances, journalists and
medics are also part time terrorists. So when the IDF kills them, they suddenly become "innocent civilians".
This is a total war situation where one side not only has dispensed with
the Geneva Conventions, they furthermore cynically use it to their
advantage.
Is there any hospital in Gaza where the IDF haven't found a terror base
or weapons stored there?
I'm not saying there are absolutely no non-combatant deaths or innocent casualties, but as I said before this is war, and war is a blunt
instrument. There have been documented audits by respectable third
parties who declared the IDF goes above and beyond what Western
standards might be to preserve life.
“The IDF does more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.” - Col. Richard Kemp
Arab Muslims in Israel have equal rights and can join the IDF if the
wanted to.
Yes it is possible to be Jewish while harbouring anti-Semitic beliefs.
On 2025-05-04, J Newman <jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/4/25 18:27, The Todal wrote:
On 04/05/2025 00:42, J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder,
the response will be war?
Why is it so difficult to understand that if you are Palestinian, living >>> peaceably with your family in your home in the West Bank and trying to
make a living as an olive farmer, and then the Zionist settlers come and >>> point guns at you and evict you and bulldoze your home, and the Israeli
troops and police stand by and protect the settlers, the response of the >>> civilised world will be that Israel is a nation of barbarians and
savages, an apartheid nation that disregards the rights of Palestinians
and flagrantly breaks international law?
And that this failure to provide citizens with equal treatment under the >>> law will directly lead to more Hamas recruitment, more terrorism, more
hatred which unfortunately will be directed not only at Israel but to
some extent to Jews in other countries?
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my fellow >>> Jews against hatred and antisemitism. Go thou and do likewise.
The problem is that a lot of those kids, ambulances, journalists and
medics are also part time terrorists. So when the IDF kills them, they
suddenly become "innocent civilians".
"a lot of those kids ... are also part time terrorists"
You can stop now, you've lost the argument.
Roger Hayter wrote:
While I don't doubt Hamas' anti-Israeli motivation, they have not hadThe teaching material in UNRWA schools up to a couple of years ago
those
charter objectives for some decades now.
promoted antisemitism, jihad and violence though ...
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA- Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
On 04/05/2025 11:27, The Todal wrote:
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my
fellow Jews against hatred and antisemitism.
Do you think you do, really? How?
The only (unarmed, at least!) march in history I can think of that
actually achieved anything by way of change was the salt march by
Gandhi. Nothing in this country, not even the Jarrow crusade, has ever achieved anything concrete or substantial.
Of course, protestors will convince themselves, especially after meeting
with their mutual self-help companions, that they have achieved
something, or their time will have been completely wasted, and they
won't want to admit to that. In particular, they will have Brought The Matter To The Public's Attention (TM) if they don't have anything
better, which they usually don't, apart of course from a bit of criminal damage. Whether their protest has done that or actually changed
anyone's mind is another matter, but I would say it's highly unlikely.
On 5/5/25 00:54, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-05-04, J Newman <jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/4/25 18:27, The Todal wrote:
On 04/05/2025 00:42, J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder, >>>>> the response will be war?
Why is it so difficult to understand that if you are Palestinian,
living
peaceably with your family in your home in the West Bank and trying to >>>> make a living as an olive farmer, and then the Zionist settlers come
and
point guns at you and evict you and bulldoze your home, and the Israeli >>>> troops and police stand by and protect the settlers, the response of
the
civilised world will be that Israel is a nation of barbarians and
savages, an apartheid nation that disregards the rights of Palestinians >>>> and flagrantly breaks international law?
And that this failure to provide citizens with equal treatment under
the
law will directly lead to more Hamas recruitment, more terrorism, more >>>> hatred which unfortunately will be directed not only at Israel but to
some extent to Jews in other countries?
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my
fellow
Jews against hatred and antisemitism. Go thou and do likewise.
The problem is that a lot of those kids, ambulances, journalists and
medics are also part time terrorists. So when the IDF kills them, they
suddenly become "innocent civilians".
"a lot of those kids ... are also part time terrorists"
You can stop now, you've lost the argument.
Don't flatter yourself. I'm not arguing with you.
I have better things to do than convince armchair commandos on the
Internet who hide their anti-Semitic views behind lies and entirely
false justifications.
I state the truth. If you do not like it you can deny it for a time,
perhaps for the rest of your life. But truth is eternal.
On 04/05/2025 12:16, Norman Wells wrote:
On 04/05/2025 11:27, The Todal wrote:
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my
fellow Jews against hatred and antisemitism.
Do you think you do, really? How?
By marching under a Jewish banner, Jews for Justice for Palestinians or
one of the many other Jewish groups that are opposed to Israel's genocide.
It proves to onlookers that British Jews are not slavish supporters of genocide but actually have a moral compass.
Clear now?
Thus, the following opinions voiced by you are plainly well
off the mark.
The only (unarmed, at least!) march in history I can think of that
actually achieved anything by way of change was the salt march by
Gandhi. Nothing in this country, not even the Jarrow crusade, has
ever achieved anything concrete or substantial.
Of course, protestors will convince themselves, especially after
meeting with their mutual self-help companions, that they have
achieved something, or their time will have been completely wasted,
and they won't want to admit to that. In particular, they will have
Brought The Matter To The Public's Attention (TM) if they don't have
anything better, which they usually don't, apart of course from a bit
of criminal damage. Whether their protest has done that or actually
changed anyone's mind is another matter, but I would say it's highly
unlikely.
On 5/5/25 00:54, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2025-05-04, J Newman <jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/4/25 18:27, The Todal wrote:
On 04/05/2025 00:42, J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder, >>>>> the response will be war?
Why is it so difficult to understand that if you are Palestinian, living >>>> peaceably with your family in your home in the West Bank and trying to >>>> make a living as an olive farmer, and then the Zionist settlers come and >>>> point guns at you and evict you and bulldoze your home, and the Israeli >>>> troops and police stand by and protect the settlers, the response of the >>>> civilised world will be that Israel is a nation of barbarians and
savages, an apartheid nation that disregards the rights of Palestinians >>>> and flagrantly breaks international law?
And that this failure to provide citizens with equal treatment under the >>>> law will directly lead to more Hamas recruitment, more terrorism, more >>>> hatred which unfortunately will be directed not only at Israel but to
some extent to Jews in other countries?
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my fellow >>>> Jews against hatred and antisemitism. Go thou and do likewise.
The problem is that a lot of those kids, ambulances, journalists and
medics are also part time terrorists. So when the IDF kills them, they
suddenly become "innocent civilians".
"a lot of those kids ... are also part time terrorists"
You can stop now, you've lost the argument.
Don't flatter yourself. I'm not arguing with you.
I have better things to do than convince armchair commandos on the
Internet who hide their anti-Semitic views behind lies and entirely
false justifications.
I state the truth. If you do not like it you can deny it for a time,
perhaps for the rest of your life. But truth is eternal.
On 4 May 2025 at 17:40:09 BST, "JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 04/05/2025 04:14 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 4 May 2025 at 15:19:34 BST, "JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 04/05/2025 12:00 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
"Roger Hayter" <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
While I don't doubt Hamas' anti-Israeli motivation, they have not had thoseThe teaching material in UNRWA schools up to a couple of years ago >>>>>>> promoted antisemitism, jihad and violence though ...
charter objectives for some decades now.
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace
(CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
Also, of course, if you teach the Christian Old Testament Bible (and, >>>>> presumably, cognate Jewish texts) you're going to get some pretty
blood-thirsty advice.
The *Christian* Old Testament Bible?
Do you mean the Old Testament as (usually) compiled with the addition of >>>> the New Testament?
Yes, I just inadvertently missed out "of the"; sorry!
;-)
Mind you, there's some pretty uncompromising stuff in Revelation, though perhaps it's more God doing it rather than asking us to.
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 04/05/2025 04:15 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace
(CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
I did try to find who funds them nevertheless, the EU seemed to take >>>>>> their reports as credible, I daresay if the one of our neighbours
produced such material against the UK, some UK-based organisations would >>>>>> report on it ...
True, but in the 70s and 80s I really wouldn't have gone to the UK government
for an objective assessment of the situation in Northern Ireland. I would have
expected it to be one-sided propaganda.
The story then would have been the same as it was in the 1960s and is
now. It would have been something along the lines of Northern Ireland
[however defined] would remain a part of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland for as long as [a majority of] its people >>>> wished that to continue.
That is political decision, not an assessment of the situation!
Thinking back to what we know of the political situation in Ireland
between 1918 and 1922, it would be a brave commentator who stated that
the UK government of the day should (or even, realistically, could) have
handed the whole island over to a new Dublin administration. There were
those in what is now Northern Ireland who were threatening extreme
organised violence against anyonee with whom they disagreed. Edward
Carson was not only among them but right up in the leadership.
You must have heard of that?
And even by the 1970s and 1980s, there was no reason to believe that the
political balance had changed. It might be on the cusp of changing now.
But that was not what I am talking about. During the insurgency what our government said about the Nationalist community, or loyalist paramilitaries or
indeed the co-operation of our forces with the latter, would be unlikely to be
accepted as objective truth because of our partisanship. In just the same way as I am unlikely to accept unreservedly as objective truth what the IDF or NATO says about Gaza. In neither case would anyone expect one party to the fighting to be completely frank.
On 04/05/2025 06:06 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 04/05/2025 04:15 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2022-UNRWA-Produced-School-Materials.pdf>
Yes, well I can't prove they are lying but, from Wikipedia:
"IMPACT-SE, formerly known as the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace
(CMIP), is an Israeli non-profit organization"
I did try to find who funds them nevertheless, the EU seemed to take >>>>>>> their reports as credible, I daresay if the one of our neighbours >>>>>>> produced such material against the UK, some UK-based organisations would
report on it ...
True, but in the 70s and 80s I really wouldn't have gone to the UK government
for an objective assessment of the situation in Northern Ireland. I would have
expected it to be one-sided propaganda.
The story then would have been the same as it was in the 1960s and is >>>>> now. It would have been something along the lines of Northern Ireland >>>>> [however defined] would remain a part of the United Kingdom of Great >>>>> Britain and Northern Ireland for as long as [a majority of] its people >>>>> wished that to continue.
That is political decision, not an assessment of the situation!
It's both.
Thinking back to what we know of the political situation in Ireland
between 1918 and 1922, it would be a brave commentator who stated that
the UK government of the day should (or even, realistically, could) have >>> handed the whole island over to a new Dublin administration. There were
those in what is now Northern Ireland who were threatening extreme
organised violence against anyonee with whom they disagreed. Edward
Carson was not only among them but right up in the leadership.
You must have heard of that?
And even by the 1970s and 1980s, there was no reason to believe that the >>> political balance had changed. It might be on the cusp of changing now.
But that was not what I am talking about. During the insurgency what our
government said about the Nationalist community, or loyalist paramilitaries or
indeed the co-operation of our forces with the latter, would be unlikely to be
accepted as objective truth because of our partisanship. In just the same way
as I am unlikely to accept unreservedly as objective truth what the IDF or >> NATO says about Gaza. In neither case would anyone expect one party to the >> fighting to be completely frank.
I would never expect a sensible government (of anywhere, not just the
UK) to be totally open about the conduct of contemporary military
operations. The reasons for that are obvious, wouldn't you say?
Or would you argue that the UK's various deceit measures deployed during
WW2 - against the Axis enemies - were somehow "immoral" because they
were deceitful?
Getting back to Ireland, the UK's standpoint, all along, has been that
NI is part of the UK for as long as its population want that to continue.
That's not all that different from the UK's stance on Scottish
independence (Welsh independence would be a little more difficult than
that).
Well... not all that different apart from the fact that no NI recent referendum has been held. It might well be overdue.
On 04/05/2025 12:16, Norman Wells wrote:
On 04/05/2025 11:27, The Todal wrote:
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my
fellow Jews against hatred and antisemitism.
Do you think you do, really? How?
By marching under a Jewish banner, Jews for Justice for Palestinians or
one of the many other Jewish groups that are opposed to Israel's genocide.
It proves to onlookers that British Jews are not slavish supporters of genocide but actually have a moral compass.
Clear now? Thus, the following opinions voiced by you are plainly well
off the mark.
The only (unarmed, at least!) march in history I can think of that
actually achieved anything by way of change was the salt march by
Gandhi. Nothing in this country, not even the Jarrow crusade, has
ever achieved anything concrete or substantial.
Of course, protestors will convince themselves, especially after
meeting with their mutual self-help companions, that they have
achieved something, or their time will have been completely wasted,
and they won't want to admit to that. In particular, they will have
Brought The Matter To The Public's Attention (TM) if they don't have
anything better, which they usually don't, apart of course from a bit
of criminal damage. Whether their protest has done that or actually
changed anyone's mind is another matter, but I would say it's highly
unlikely.
"J Newman" <jenniferkatenewman@gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/4/25 18:27, The Todal wrote:
On 04/05/2025 00:42, J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder,
the response will be war?
Why is it so difficult to understand that if you are Palestinian, living >>> peaceably with your family in your home in the West Bank and trying to
make a living as an olive farmer, and then the Zionist settlers come and >>> point guns at you and evict you and bulldoze your home, and the Israeli
troops and police stand by and protect the settlers, the response of the >>> civilised world will be that Israel is a nation of barbarians and
savages, an apartheid nation that disregards the rights of Palestinians
and flagrantly breaks international law?
And that this failure to provide citizens with equal treatment under the >>> law will directly lead to more Hamas recruitment, more terrorism, more
hatred which unfortunately will be directed not only at Israel but to
some extent to Jews in other countries?
By marching against Israel's actions in Gaza I help to protect my fellow >>> Jews against hatred and antisemitism. Go thou and do likewise.
The problem is that a lot of those kids, ambulances, journalists and
medics are also part time terrorists. So when the IDF kills them, they
suddenly become "innocent civilians".
The concept of a "part time terroris" in the middle of a war is just so absurd
I really wouldn't bother to express it outside of circles where you know such nonsense is appreciated. And using it of medics under fire is insulting, apart
from acting on it being a breach of all civilised conventions, including the Geneva one.
This is a total war situation where one side not only has dispensed with
the Geneva Conventions, they furthermore cynically use it to their
advantage.
Is there any hospital in Gaza where the IDF haven't found a terror base
or weapons stored there?
I'm not saying there are absolutely no non-combatant deaths or innocent
casualties, but as I said before this is war, and war is a blunt
instrument. There have been documented audits by respectable third
parties who declared the IDF goes above and beyond what Western
standards might be to preserve life.
The "respectable third parties" you are referring to are Israel's military allies in NATO! An organisation you may be aware is dominated by your biggest supporter, fellow combatant and arms supplier
“The IDF does more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone >> than any other army in the history of warfare.” - Col. Richard Kemp
Arab Muslims in Israel have equal rights and can join the IDF if the
wanted to.
Yes it is possible to be Jewish while harbouring anti-Semitic beliefs.
A remarkably irrelevant statement since no one here has expressed any anti-semitic beliefs.
JNugent wrote:
On 04/05/2025 10:59 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 04/05/2025 in message <vv69kn$kfop$1@dont-email.me> J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder,
the response will be war?
Not difficult at all as long as the war is with the barbarians.
War, unfortunately, is and can never simply be waged against the armed
forces of the enemy state. Especially not when its combatants do not
distinguish themselves from civilians and their bases from civilian
locations.
That just parrots Israeli propaganda I'm afraid and, as I said, it it
NOT ACCEPTABLE in the 21st century.
The objections I have seen raised relate to the slaughter of women,
children and new born babies. It's the 21st century so please don't try
and raise the defences used in World War 2, they just don't cut it now.
In your opinion, has Israel got any right to defend its population
from attack, whether of the October type or the repeated launching of
rockets aimed as much as, if not more than, at civilian targets? Or
should Israel just have "sucked it up"?
Of course, all nations have such a right. Sadly Israel feels that
blowing new born babies to pieces is defensive, I really do not know
what sort of scum would suggest that or believe it.
On 04/05/2025 15:26, JNugent wrote:
On 04/05/2025 10:59 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 04/05/2025 in message <vv69kn$kfop$1@dont-email.me> J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder,
the response will be war?
Not difficult at all as long as the war is with the barbarians.
War, unfortunately, is and can never simply be waged against the armed
forces of the enemy state. Especially not when its combatants do not
distinguish themselves from civilians and their bases from civilian
locations.
Are you trying to justify the slaughter on October 7th 2023 on the basis
that many of those killed would have been combatants aka reservists
rather than innocent civilians?
The objections I have seen raised relate to the slaughter of women,
children and new born babies. It's the 21st century so please don't try
and raise the defences used in World War 2, they just don't cut it now.
In your opinion, has Israel got any right to defend its population
from attack, whether of the October type or the repeated launching of
rockets aimed as much as, if not more than, at civilian targets? Or
should Israel just have "sucked it up"?
That's a good question, and since it was generally accepted by the UN
that Israel should exist then of course it should have that right.
It must also accepted that without a political settlement after the
terrorist atrocities that were a prelude to the creation of Israel it
shows that acts of terrorism are effective about bringing unilateral
change.
The issue now, is not one of self defence, but one of illegally
subjecting the population of Gazza to starvation and collective punishment.
What is currently happening is the greatest recruitment campaign Hamas
could have ever hoped for.
Would you place collaborators on a pedestal and called the French
resistance terrorists too?
The issue now, is not one of self defence, but one of illegally
subjecting the population of Gazza to starvation and collective
punishment.
I think there is more to it than that. One viewpoint that one can imagine >(from the standpoint of Israel) is that the power and capacity of forces >within neighbouring states and statelets to attack Israel must be degraded
to as near as possible to non-existence in order to keep Israel and its >people safe.
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October >atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it won't >happen again.
On 04/05/2025 06:02 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 04/05/2025 10:59 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 04/05/2025 in message <vv69kn$kfop$1@dont-email.me> J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians >>>>>come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder, >>>>>the response will be war?
Not difficult at all as long as the war is with the barbarians.
War, unfortunately, is and can never simply be waged against the armed >>>forces of the enemy state. Especially not when its combatants do not >>>distinguish themselves from civilians and their bases from civilian >>>locations.
That just parrots Israeli propaganda I'm afraid and, as I said, it it
NOT ACCEPTABLE in the 21st century.
Says who...?
The objections I have seen raised relate to the slaughter of women, >>>>children and new born babies. It's the 21st century so please don't try >>>>and raise the defences used in World War 2, they just don't cut it now.
In your opinion, has Israel got any right to defend its population
from attack, whether of the October type or the repeated launching of >>>rockets aimed as much as, if not more than, at civilian targets? Or >>>should Israel just have "sucked it up"?
Of course, all nations have such a right. Sadly Israel feels that
blowing new born babies to pieces is defensive, I really do not know
what sort of scum would suggest that or believe it.
So what should Israel have done in response to the October attacks, the >murders and the hostage-taking? Did it, in fact, in your view, have any >options at all except for turning the other cheek?
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal detention
of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
On 04/05/2025 06:02 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 04/05/2025 10:59 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 04/05/2025 in message <vv69kn$kfop$1@dont-email.me> J Newman wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians
come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder, >>>>> the response will be war?
Not difficult at all as long as the war is with the barbarians.
War, unfortunately, is and can never simply be waged against the armed
forces of the enemy state. Especially not when its combatants do not
distinguish themselves from civilians and their bases from civilian
locations.
That just parrots Israeli propaganda I'm afraid and, as I said, it it
NOT ACCEPTABLE in the 21st century.
Says who...?
The objections I have seen raised relate to the slaughter of women,
children and new born babies. It's the 21st century so please don't try >>>> and raise the defences used in World War 2, they just don't cut it now.
In your opinion, has Israel got any right to defend its population
from attack, whether of the October type or the repeated launching of
rockets aimed as much as, if not more than, at civilian targets? Or
should Israel just have "sucked it up"?
Of course, all nations have such a right. Sadly Israel feels that
blowing new born babies to pieces is defensive, I really do not know
what sort of scum would suggest that or believe it.
So what should Israel have done in response to the October attacks, the murders and the hostage-taking? Did it, in fact, in your view, have any options at all except for turning the other cheek?
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal detention
of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
On 05/05/2025 in message <m7rt7uFtbraU1@mid.individual.net> JNugent wrote:
The issue now, is not one of self defence, but one of illegally
subjecting the population of Gazza to starvation and collective
punishment.
I think there is more to it than that. One viewpoint that one can
imagine (from the standpoint of Israel) is that the power and capacity
of forces within neighbouring states and statelets to attack Israel
must be degraded to as near as possible to non-existence in order to
keep Israel and its people safe.
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October
atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it
won't happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been slaughtering Palestinians (including women, children and also journalists) since the Nakba.
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October >>>atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it >>>won't happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been slaughtering >>Palestinians (including women, children and also journalists) since the >>Nakba.
What is/was the Nakba?
What does it mean, in the relevant circumstances, to "act as a civilised >nation"?
Just do nothing and hope for the best?
On 05/05/2025 in message <m7rt7uFtbraU1@mid.individual.net> JNugent wrote:
I think there is more to it than that. One viewpoint that one can imagine >>(from the standpoint of Israel) is that the power and capacity of forces >>within neighbouring states and statelets to attack Israel must be degraded >>to as near as possible to non-existence in order to keep Israel and its >>people safe.
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October >>atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it won't >>happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been slaughtering Palestinians (including women, children and also journalists) since the Nakba.
JNugent wrote:
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October
atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it
won't happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been slaughtering >>> Palestinians (including women, children and also journalists) since the
Nakba.
What is/was the Nakba?
What does it mean, in the relevant circumstances, to "act as a
civilised nation"?
Just do nothing and hope for the best?
https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/
I gave you an example of how a civilised nation deals with terrorism.
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
On 04/05/2025 06:02 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 04/05/2025 10:59 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 04/05/2025 in message <vv69kn$kfop$1@dont-email.me> J Newman wrote: >>>
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians >>>>>> come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder, >>>>>> the response will be war?
Not difficult at all as long as the war is with the barbarians.
War, unfortunately, is and can never simply be waged against the armed >>>> forces of the enemy state. Especially not when its combatants do not
distinguish themselves from civilians and their bases from civilian
locations.
That just parrots Israeli propaganda I'm afraid and, as I said, it it
NOT ACCEPTABLE in the 21st century.
Says who...?
The objections I have seen raised relate to the slaughter of women,
children and new born babies. It's the 21st century so please don't
try
and raise the defences used in World War 2, they just don't cut it
now.
In your opinion, has Israel got any right to defend its population
from attack, whether of the October type or the repeated launching of
rockets aimed as much as, if not more than, at civilian targets? Or
should Israel just have "sucked it up"?
Of course, all nations have such a right. Sadly Israel feels that
blowing new born babies to pieces is defensive, I really do not know
what sort of scum would suggest that or believe it.
So what should Israel have done in response to the October attacks,
the murders and the hostage-taking? Did it, in fact, in your view,
have any options at all except for turning the other cheek?
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal
detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why slaughtering everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to concentrate
on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but
carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
On 04/05/2025 06:02 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 04/05/2025 10:59 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 04/05/2025 in message <vv69kn$kfop$1@dont-email.me> J Newman
wrote:
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians >>>>>>> come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and
murder,
the response will be war?
Not difficult at all as long as the war is with the barbarians.
War, unfortunately, is and can never simply be waged against the armed >>>>> forces of the enemy state. Especially not when its combatants do not >>>>> distinguish themselves from civilians and their bases from civilian
locations.
That just parrots Israeli propaganda I'm afraid and, as I said, it it
NOT ACCEPTABLE in the 21st century.
Says who...?
The objections I have seen raised relate to the slaughter of women, >>>>>> children and new born babies. It's the 21st century so please don't >>>>>> try
and raise the defences used in World War 2, they just don't cut it >>>>>> now.
In your opinion, has Israel got any right to defend its population
from attack, whether of the October type or the repeated launching of >>>>> rockets aimed as much as, if not more than, at civilian targets? Or
should Israel just have "sucked it up"?
Of course, all nations have such a right. Sadly Israel feels that
blowing new born babies to pieces is defensive, I really do not know
what sort of scum would suggest that or believe it.
So what should Israel have done in response to the October attacks,
the murders and the hostage-taking? Did it, in fact, in your view,
have any options at all except for turning the other cheek?
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal
detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why slaughtering
everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to concentrate
on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but
carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" is best approached?
On 06/05/2025 08:14 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October >>>>> atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it >>>>> won't happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been slaughtering >>>> Palestinians (including women, children and also journalists) since the >>>> Nakba.
What is/was the Nakba?
What does it mean, in the relevant circumstances, to "act as a
civilised nation"?
Just do nothing and hope for the best?
https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/
Thank you.
Published by the United Nations on its website, that does not read as a dispassionate and balanced account.
But seeing how other actions of the UN in recent years (especially those
of its "Rapporteurs" (at least one of whom went as far as criticising
the UK for the "lack of generosity" in social security schemes - when
many UN member states have no social security schemes to speak of),
perhaps that it not as surprising as it ought to be.
But perhaps you have forgotten how many times, since its founding (by resolution of the United Nations), Israel has been attacked and/or
invaded by neighbouring states and forces.
I gave you an example of how a civilised nation deals with terrorism.
How does a civilised nation deal with an organised and determined attack
by a well-armed military force (whether or not disguised as civilians)?
On 05/05/2025 23:34, JNugent wrote:
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal
detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why slaughtering
everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to concentrate
on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but
carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" is
best approached?
How, do you say, that the British security services managed to identify
and arrest or eliminate the worst of the IRA terrorists?
Oh, what, you don't know? Maybe you should apply to join MI5 or GCHQ or
the SAS. If you're really interested. I mean, did you expect a detailed
plan from a stranger in Usenet?
JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 08:14 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October >>>>>> atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it >>>>>> won't happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been
slaughtering Palestinians (including women, children and also
journalists) since the Nakba.
What is/was the Nakba?
What does it mean, in the relevant circumstances, to "act as a
civilised nation"?
Just do nothing and hope for the best?
https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/
Thank you.
Published by the United Nations on its website, that does not read as
a dispassionate and balanced account.
But seeing how other actions of the UN in recent years, especially
those of its "Rapporteurs" (at least one of whom went as far as
criticising the UK for the "lack of generosity" in social security
schemes - when many UN member states have no social security schemes
to speak of), perhaps that it not as surprising as it ought to be.
But perhaps you have forgotten how many times, since its founding (by
resolution of the United Nations), Israel has been attacked and/or
invaded by neighbouring states and forces.
I gave you an example of how a civilised nation deals with terrorism.
How does a civilised nation deal with an organised and determined
attack by a well-armed military force (whether or not disguised as
civilians)?
I think there is no point in trying to explain this to you, you have an excuse for Israel's genocide at every turn.
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 06/05/2025 08:14 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October >>>>>> atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it >>>>>> won't happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been slaughtering >>>>> Palestinians (including women, children and also journalists) since the >>>>> Nakba.
What is/was the Nakba?
What does it mean, in the relevant circumstances, to "act as a
civilised nation"?
Just do nothing and hope for the best?
https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/
Thank you.
Published by the United Nations on its website, that does not read as a
dispassionate and balanced account.
But seeing how other actions of the UN in recent years, especially those
of its "Rapporteurs" (at least one of whom went as far as criticising
the UK for the "lack of generosity" in social security schemes - when
many UN member states have no social security schemes to speak of),
perhaps that it not as surprising as it ought to be.
But perhaps you have forgotten how many times, since its founding (by
resolution of the United Nations), Israel has been attacked and/or
invaded by neighbouring states and forces.
I gave you an example of how a civilised nation deals with terrorism.
How does a civilised nation deal with an organised and determined attack
by a well-armed military force (whether or not disguised as civilians)?
"Well-armed" is ridiculous. They have no tanks, no artillery, no guided missiles,no airforce, no significant drones, no anti-aircraft defences, no defensive fortifications, no hardened bunkers etc etc. They are a small force with hand weapons and crude undirected rockets. Not significantly better armed
than the IRA.
On 06/05/2025 11:58 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 08:14 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October >>>>>>> atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it >>>>>>> won't happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been
slaughtering Palestinians (including women, children and also
journalists) since the Nakba.
What is/was the Nakba?
What does it mean, in the relevant circumstances, to "act as a
civilised nation"?
Just do nothing and hope for the best?
https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/
Thank you.
Published by the United Nations on its website, that does not read as
a dispassionate and balanced account.
But seeing how other actions of the UN in recent years, especially
those of its "Rapporteurs" (at least one of whom went as far as
criticising the UK for the "lack of generosity" in social security
schemes - when many UN member states have no social security schemes
to speak of), perhaps that it not as surprising as it ought to be.
But perhaps you have forgotten how many times, since its founding (by
resolution of the United Nations), Israel has been attacked and/or
invaded by neighbouring states and forces.
I gave you an example of how a civilised nation deals with terrorism.
How does a civilised nation deal with an organised and determined
attack by a well-armed military force (whether or not disguised as
civilians)?
I think there is no point in trying to explain this to you, you have an
excuse for Israel's genocide at every turn.
I am trying to see both sides of the argument.
I suspect that you are not.
On 06/05/2025 11:09 AM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 23:34, JNugent wrote:
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
[ ... ]
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal
detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why slaughtering >>>> everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to concentrate >>>> on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but
carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" is
best approached?
How, do you say, that the British security services managed to identify
and arrest or eliminate the worst of the IRA terrorists?
For the most obvious of reasons, I have no answer to that except "Did
they actually manage to do it?".
Your assertion does not seem to chime with the history we all lived
through - but in any case, let's not use it as a diversionary tactic. We
are not discussing "The Troubles".
Oh, what, you don't know? Maybe you should apply to join MI5 or GCHQ or
the SAS. If you're really interested. I mean, did you expect a detailed
plan from a stranger in Usenet?
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go
about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way
similar to what they are doing.
Your urging of the "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" seems to
be another diversion.
Please be clear: is there another way that the IDF could go about
seeking the neutralisation of Hamas?
If so, what is it (even in very round terms)?
That's what I'd be interested to know. If there is another such method, clearly, that could change anyone's view of current events. But so far...
On 06/05/2025 11:56 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 06/05/2025 08:14 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October >>>>>>> atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it >>>>>>> won't happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been
slaughtering
Palestinians (including women, children and also journalists)
since the
Nakba.
What is/was the Nakba?
What does it mean, in the relevant circumstances, to "act as a
civilised nation"?
Just do nothing and hope for the best?
https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/
Thank you.
Published by the United Nations on its website, that does not read as a
dispassionate and balanced account.
But seeing how other actions of the UN in recent years, especially those >>> of its "Rapporteurs" (at least one of whom went as far as criticising
the UK for the "lack of generosity" in social security schemes - when
many UN member states have no social security schemes to speak of),
perhaps that it not as surprising as it ought to be.
But perhaps you have forgotten how many times, since its founding (by
resolution of the United Nations), Israel has been attacked and/or
invaded by neighbouring states and forces.
I gave you an example of how a civilised nation deals with terrorism.
How does a civilised nation deal with an organised and determined attack >>> by a well-armed military force (whether or not disguised as civilians)?
"Well-armed" is ridiculous. They have no tanks, no artillery, no guided
missiles,no airforce, no significant drones, no anti-aircraft
defences, no
defensive fortifications, no hardened bunkers etc etc. They are a
small force
with hand weapons and crude undirected rockets. Not significantly
better armed
than the IRA.
They nevertheless manage to fire endless numbers of rockets with
explosive warheads across boundaries into Israel.
for years.
have seem to have been remarkably effective in murdering many civilians
(who are just as dead as if they'd been the victim of air bombardment)
or has that also been forgotten?
You and a couple of others are really not looking at this reasonably. If
you expect any nation under constant military or "irregular" attack to
just turn the other cheek and wait patiently for the next strike, you
must already know that that is not reasonable.
Would you expect it of other states? North Korea? Cuba?
You need to try to put yourself in the shoes of both sides when
examining issues such as this.
On 06/05/2025 11:09 AM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 23:34, JNugent wrote:
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
[ ... ]
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal
detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why slaughtering >>>> everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to concentrate >>>> on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but
carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" is
best approached?
How, do you say, that the British security services managed to identify
and arrest or eliminate the worst of the IRA terrorists?
For the most obvious of reasons, I have no answer to that except "Did
they actually manage to do it?".
Your assertion does not seem to chime with the history we all lived
through - but in any case, let's not use it as a diversionary tactic. We
are not discussing "The Troubles".
Oh, what, you don't know? Maybe you should apply to join MI5 or GCHQ or
the SAS. If you're really interested. I mean, did you expect a detailed
plan from a stranger in Usenet?
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go
about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way
similar to what they are doing.
Your urging of the "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" seems to
be another diversion.
Please be clear: is there another way that the IDF could go about
seeking the neutralisation of Hamas?
If so, what is it (even in very round terms)?
That's what I'd be interested to know. If there is another such method, clearly, that could change anyone's view of current events. But so far...
On 05/05/2025 in message <m7ssm1F3nkeU2@mid.individual.net> JNugent wrote:
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October
atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it
won't happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been slaughtering >>> Palestinians (including women, children and also journalists) since the
Nakba.
What is/was the Nakba?
What does it mean, in the relevant circumstances, to "act as a
civilised nation"?
Just do nothing and hope for the best?
https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/
I gave you an example of how a civilised nation deals with terrorism.
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
On 04/05/2025 06:02 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 04/05/2025 10:59 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 04/05/2025 in message <vv69kn$kfop$1@dont-email.me> J Newman wrote: >>>>
Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that if barbarians >>>>>>> come to my house, or my extended family's houses, to rape and murder, >>>>>>> the response will be war?
Not difficult at all as long as the war is with the barbarians.
War, unfortunately, is and can never simply be waged against the armed >>>>> forces of the enemy state. Especially not when its combatants do not >>>>> distinguish themselves from civilians and their bases from civilian
locations.
That just parrots Israeli propaganda I'm afraid and, as I said, it it
NOT ACCEPTABLE in the 21st century.
Says who...?
The objections I have seen raised relate to the slaughter of women, >>>>>> children and new born babies. It's the 21st century so please don't >>>>>> try
and raise the defences used in World War 2, they just don't cut it >>>>>> now.
In your opinion, has Israel got any right to defend its population
from attack, whether of the October type or the repeated launching of >>>>> rockets aimed as much as, if not more than, at civilian targets? Or
should Israel just have "sucked it up"?
Of course, all nations have such a right. Sadly Israel feels that
blowing new born babies to pieces is defensive, I really do not know
what sort of scum would suggest that or believe it.
So what should Israel have done in response to the October attacks,
the murders and the hostage-taking? Did it, in fact, in your view,
have any options at all except for turning the other cheek?
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal
detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why slaughtering
everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to concentrate
on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but
carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" is best approached?
On 06/05/2025 11:56 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
"JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 06/05/2025 08:14 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the October >>>>>>> atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping that it >>>>>>> won't happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been
slaughtering
Palestinians (including women, children and also journalists)
since the
Nakba.
What is/was the Nakba?
What does it mean, in the relevant circumstances, to "act as a
civilised nation"?
Just do nothing and hope for the best?
https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/
Thank you.
Published by the United Nations on its website, that does not read as a
dispassionate and balanced account.
But seeing how other actions of the UN in recent years, especially those >>> of its "Rapporteurs" (at least one of whom went as far as criticising
the UK for the "lack of generosity" in social security schemes - when
many UN member states have no social security schemes to speak of),
perhaps that it not as surprising as it ought to be.
But perhaps you have forgotten how many times, since its founding (by
resolution of the United Nations), Israel has been attacked and/or
invaded by neighbouring states and forces.
I gave you an example of how a civilised nation deals with terrorism.
How does a civilised nation deal with an organised and determined attack >>> by a well-armed military force (whether or not disguised as civilians)?
"Well-armed" is ridiculous. They have no tanks, no artillery, no guided
missiles,no airforce, no significant drones, no anti-aircraft
defences, no
defensive fortifications, no hardened bunkers etc etc. They are a
small force
with hand weapons and crude undirected rockets. Not significantly
better armed
than the IRA.
They nevertheless manage to fire endless numbers of rockets with
explosive warheads across boundaries into Israel. That's been happening
for years. You must have heard about it. And such "hand weapons" as they
have seem to have been remarkably effective in murdering many civilians
(who are just as dead as if they'd been the victim of air bombardment)
or has that also been forgotten?
You and a couple of others are really not looking at this reasonably. If
you expect any nation under constant military or "irregular" attack to
just turn the other cheek and wait patiently for the next strike, you
must already know that that is not reasonable.
Would you expect it of other states? North Korea? Cuba?
You need to try to put yourself in the shoes of both sides when
examining issues such as this.
On 06/05/2025 12:28, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 11:58 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 08:14 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
And that failing to bring that about, particularly after the
October
atrocities, amounts to a policy of doing no more than hoping
that it
won't happen again.
Israel could try and act as a civilised nation, it has been
slaughtering Palestinians (including women, children and also
journalists) since the Nakba.
What is/was the Nakba?
What does it mean, in the relevant circumstances, to "act as a
civilised nation"?
Just do nothing and hope for the best?
https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/
Thank you.
Published by the United Nations on its website, that does not read as
a dispassionate and balanced account.
But seeing how other actions of the UN in recent years, especially
those of its "Rapporteurs" (at least one of whom went as far as
criticising the UK for the "lack of generosity" in social security
schemes - when many UN member states have no social security schemes
to speak of), perhaps that it not as surprising as it ought to be.
But perhaps you have forgotten how many times, since its founding (by
resolution of the United Nations), Israel has been attacked and/or
invaded by neighbouring states and forces.
I gave you an example of how a civilised nation deals with terrorism.
How does a civilised nation deal with an organised and determined
attack by a well-armed military force (whether or not disguised as
civilians)?
I think there is no point in trying to explain this to you, you have an
excuse for Israel's genocide at every turn.
I am trying to see both sides of the argument.
I suspect that you are not.
I don't think you really are trying to see both sides of the argument.
You keep coming back to how the mass slaughter of innocent Palestinian
people somehow protects Israelis from terrorist rockets, which is self-evidently a nonsense proposition.
Apart from being a breach of
international law, the practical objection is that it only increases terrorist recruitment.
In WW2 we didn't cause the Germans to surrender by bombing their
civilians. Our soldiers had to fight numerous battles, often hand to
hand, with well armed and well equipped troops, and there was no short
cut to victory.
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 11:09 AM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 23:34, JNugent wrote:
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
[ ... ]
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal
detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why
slaughtering
everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to
concentrate
on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but
carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" is
best approached?
How, do you say, that the British security services managed to identify
and arrest or eliminate the worst of the IRA terrorists?
For the most obvious of reasons, I have no answer to that except "Did
they actually manage to do it?".
Your assertion does not seem to chime with the history we all lived
through - but in any case, let's not use it as a diversionary tactic.
We are not discussing "The Troubles".
Oh, what, you don't know? Maybe you should apply to join MI5 or GCHQ or
the SAS. If you're really interested. I mean, did you expect a detailed
plan from a stranger in Usenet?
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go
about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way
similar to what they are doing.
Your urging of the "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" seems to
be another diversion.
Please be clear: is there another way that the IDF could go about
seeking the neutralisation of Hamas?
If so, what is it (even in very round terms)?
That's what I'd be interested to know. If there is another such
method, clearly, that could change anyone's view of current events.
But so far...
Your question is still fatuous.
You could equally ask my advice about how to boost growth in the UK
economy, and my answer would be much the same - there are experts who
know how these things are done. It isn't up to me to convince you that
it can be done.
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 11:09 AM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 23:34, JNugent wrote:
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
[ ... ]
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal
detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why
slaughtering everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better
just to concentrate on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but
carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" is
best approached?
How, do you say, that the British security services managed to identify
and arrest or eliminate the worst of the IRA terrorists?
For the most obvious of reasons, I have no answer to that except "Did
they actually manage to do it?".
Your assertion does not seem to chime with the history we all lived
through - but in any case, let's not use it as a diversionary tactic.
We are not discussing "The Troubles".
We are talking of a parallel struggle. Where politician initially failed
to grasp the reality of the situation where the division of land was accomplished by force without a political settlement.
The solution to end the troubles was for both sides to enter political negotiation. It is notable that Israel's solution is now one of ethnic cleansing.
Oh, what, you don't know? Maybe you should apply to join MI5 or GCHQ or
the SAS. If you're really interested. I mean, did you expect a detailed
plan from a stranger in Usenet?
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go
about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way
similar to what they are doing.
Are you now suggesting that ethnic cleansing of Gaza is fully acceptable
with the excuse of excising Hamas from the land?
Your urging of the "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" seems to
be another diversion.
Please be clear: is there another way that the IDF could go about
seeking the neutralisation of Hamas?
That's a bit like saying the British army could bring about peace in NI.
You must be on a different planet where you feel it is military might
rather than political negotiations can ever bring about a solution to
the issues in Gaza.
If so, what is it (even in very round terms)?
It's called engaging with your enemy to bring about peace.
That's what I'd be interested to know. If there is another such
method, clearly, that could change anyone's view of current events.
But so far...
Yes, so far the route by Israel is for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
Most would call that a war crime.
On 06/05/2025 12:43 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 11:09 AM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 23:34, JNugent wrote:
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
[ ... ]
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal
detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why
slaughtering
everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to
concentrate
on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but
carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" is
best approached?
How, do you say, that the British security services managed to identify >>>> and arrest or eliminate the worst of the IRA terrorists?
For the most obvious of reasons, I have no answer to that except "Did
they actually manage to do it?".
Your assertion does not seem to chime with the history we all lived
through - but in any case, let's not use it as a diversionary tactic.
We are not discussing "The Troubles".
Oh, what, you don't know? Maybe you should apply to join MI5 or GCHQ or >>>> the SAS. If you're really interested. I mean, did you expect a detailed >>>> plan from a stranger in Usenet?
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go
about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way
similar to what they are doing.
Your urging of the "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" seems to
be another diversion.
Please be clear: is there another way that the IDF could go about
seeking the neutralisation of Hamas?
If so, what is it (even in very round terms)?
That's what I'd be interested to know. If there is another such
method, clearly, that could change anyone's view of current events.
But so far...
Your question is still fatuous.
You could equally ask my advice about how to boost growth in the UK
economy, and my answer would be much the same - there are experts who
know how these things are done. It isn't up to me to convince you that
it can be done.
There is no obvious way in which a search of Gaza for Hamas members can
be conducted except by the IDF, ready to encounter resistance.
So perhaps it would be better not to try "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" and just let that be the end of the matter?
On 06/05/2025 01:46 PM, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go
about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way
similar to what they are doing.
Are you now suggesting that ethnic cleansing of Gaza is fully acceptable
with the excuse of excising Hamas from the land?
No.
I am responding to the exact words used by the PP: "locating and
destroying Hamas terrorists".
That was proffered as though it can be achieved other than by the means presently being employed.
When asked, the PP cannot suggest a different way (and that, I suggest,
is because we all know that there isn't another way in present circumstances).
On 06/05/2025 12:48 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:28, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 11:58 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
How does a civilised nation deal with an organised and determined
attack by a well-armed military force (whether or not disguised as
civilians)?
I think there is no point in trying to explain this to you, you have an >>>> excuse for Israel's genocide at every turn.
I am trying to see both sides of the argument.
I suspect that you are not.
I don't think you really are trying to see both sides of the argument.
You keep coming back to how the mass slaughter of innocent Palestinian
people somehow protects Israelis from terrorist rockets, which is
self-evidently a nonsense proposition.
Not at all. It would be far better if it were all over and there had
been success in "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists".
But I cannot see a different way forward for Israel.
Can you? If so, what is it? You keep saying that the IDF should be doing things differently. How? In what way?
Are you now suggesting that ethnic cleansing of Gaza is fully acceptable >>with the excuse of excising Hamas from the land?
No.
I am responding to the exact words used by the PP: "locating and
destroying Hamas terrorists".
That was proffered as though it can be achieved other than by the means >presently being employed.
When asked, the PP cannot suggest a different way (and that, I suggest, is >because we all know that there isn't another way in present circumstances).
On 06/05/2025 15:24, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:43 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 11:09 AM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 23:34, JNugent wrote:
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
[ ... ]
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal >>>>>>>> detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more?
I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why
slaughtering
everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to
concentrate
on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but >>>>>>> carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" is >>>>>> best approached?
How, do you say, that the British security services managed to
identify
and arrest or eliminate the worst of the IRA terrorists?
For the most obvious of reasons, I have no answer to that except "Did
they actually manage to do it?".
Your assertion does not seem to chime with the history we all lived
through - but in any case, let's not use it as a diversionary tactic.
We are not discussing "The Troubles".
Oh, what, you don't know? Maybe you should apply to join MI5 or
GCHQ or
the SAS. If you're really interested. I mean, did you expect a
detailed
plan from a stranger in Usenet?
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go
about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way
similar to what they are doing.
Your urging of the "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" seems to >>>> be another diversion.
Please be clear: is there another way that the IDF could go about
seeking the neutralisation of Hamas?
If so, what is it (even in very round terms)?
That's what I'd be interested to know. If there is another such
method, clearly, that could change anyone's view of current events.
But so far...
Your question is still fatuous.
You could equally ask my advice about how to boost growth in the UK
economy, and my answer would be much the same - there are experts who
know how these things are done. It isn't up to me to convince you that
it can be done.
There is no obvious way in which a search of Gaza for Hamas members
can be conducted except by the IDF, ready to encounter resistance.
I haven't seen any search.
Just the bombardment of civilian
accommodation in the excuse for looking.
So perhaps it would be better not to try "locating and destroying
Hamas terrorists" and just let that be the end of the matter?
That is what is currently happening. The indiscriminate bombing of
civilians in lieu of locating any Hamas.
And yes if it was the end of th matter , the Israelis would suffer less
loss of life, not be be reinventing genocide, and hence less recruitment
for Hamas. What's not to like?
On 06/05/2025 15:42, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 01:46 PM, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go
about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way
similar to what they are doing.
Are you now suggesting that ethnic cleansing of Gaza is fully acceptable >>> with the excuse of excising Hamas from the land?
No.
I am responding to the exact words used by the PP: "locating and
destroying Hamas terrorists".
That was proffered as though it can be achieved other than by the
means presently being employed.
When asked, the PP cannot suggest a different way (and that, I
suggest, is because we all know that there isn't another way in
present circumstances).
"I'm going to keep on killing kids until you come up with a better method."
JNugent wrote:
Are you now suggesting that ethnic cleansing of Gaza is fully acceptable >>> with the excuse of excising Hamas from the land?
No.
I am responding to the exact words used by the PP: "locating and
destroying Hamas terrorists".
That was proffered as though it can be achieved other than by the
means presently being employed.
When asked, the PP cannot suggest a different way (and that, I
suggest, is because we all know that there isn't another way in
present circumstances).
We managed it during th troubles.
Problem is Israel seems intent on
wiping Gaza of the face of the earth despite the fact that only a very
small proportion of its population are Hamas.
On 07/05/2025 11:53 AM, Max Demian wrote:
On 06/05/2025 15:42, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 01:46 PM, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go >>>>> about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way
similar to what they are doing.
Are you now suggesting that ethnic cleansing of Gaza is fully
acceptable
with the excuse of excising Hamas from the land?
No.
I am responding to the exact words used by the PP: "locating and
destroying Hamas terrorists".
That was proffered as though it can be achieved other than by the
means presently being employed.
When asked, the PP cannot suggest a different way (and that, I
suggest, is because we all know that there isn't another way in
present circumstances).
"I'm going to keep on killing kids until you come up with a better
method."
That is certainly one way of putting it.
It isn't a happy situation for anyone, is it?
Can you think of any good reason for the hostages not to be released?
Wouldn't that be a good idea?
On 07/05/2025 12:34 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
Are you now suggesting that ethnic cleansing of Gaza is fully
acceptable
with the excuse of excising Hamas from the land?
No.
I am responding to the exact words used by the PP: "locating and
destroying Hamas terrorists".
That was proffered as though it can be achieved other than by the
means presently being employed.
When asked, the PP cannot suggest a different way (and that, I
suggest, is because we all know that there isn't another way in
present circumstances).
We managed it during th troubles.
Did either the IRA or the UVF murder hundreds of civilians all in one
day, take another hundred or two hostage and burn down the settlements
thay had attacked? Did either the IRA or the UVF have an avowed aim to destroy either NI or (as the case may be) Ireland and had either of them
been firing rockets at the other?
Problem is Israel seems intent on
wiping Gaza of the face of the earth despite the fact that only a very
small proportion of its population are Hamas.
That does appear to be the case.
On 07/05/2025 12:34 PM, Jeff Gaines wrote:
JNugent wrote:
Are you now suggesting that ethnic cleansing of Gaza is fully
acceptable
with the excuse of excising Hamas from the land?
No.
I am responding to the exact words used by the PP: "locating and
destroying Hamas terrorists".
That was proffered as though it can be achieved other than by the
means presently being employed.
When asked, the PP cannot suggest a different way (and that, I
suggest, is because we all know that there isn't another way in
present circumstances).
We managed it during th troubles.
Did either the IRA or the UVF murder hundreds of civilians all in one
day, take another hundred or two hostage and burn down the settlements
thay had attacked? Did either the IRA or the UVF have an avowed aim to destroy either NI or (as the case may be) Ireland and had either of them
been firing rockets at the other?
Problem is Israel seems intent on
wiping Gaza of the face of the earth despite the fact that only a very
small proportion of its population are Hamas.
That does appear to be the case.
On 06/05/2025 03:35 PM, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2025 15:24, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:43 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 11:09 AM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 23:34, JNugent wrote:
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
[ ... ]
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal >>>>>>>>> detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more? >>>>>>>>> I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why
slaughtering
everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to
concentrate
on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but >>>>>>>> carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" is >>>>>>> best approached?
How, do you say, that the British security services managed to
identify
and arrest or eliminate the worst of the IRA terrorists?
For the most obvious of reasons, I have no answer to that except "Did >>>>> they actually manage to do it?".
Your assertion does not seem to chime with the history we all lived
through - but in any case, let's not use it as a diversionary tactic. >>>>> We are not discussing "The Troubles".
Oh, what, you don't know? Maybe you should apply to join MI5 or
GCHQ or
the SAS. If you're really interested. I mean, did you expect a
detailed
plan from a stranger in Usenet?
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go >>>>> about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way
similar to what they are doing.
Your urging of the "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" seems to >>>>> be another diversion.
Please be clear: is there another way that the IDF could go about
seeking the neutralisation of Hamas?
If so, what is it (even in very round terms)?
That's what I'd be interested to know. If there is another such
method, clearly, that could change anyone's view of current events.
But so far...
Your question is still fatuous.
You could equally ask my advice about how to boost growth in the UK
economy, and my answer would be much the same - there are experts who
know how these things are done. It isn't up to me to convince you that >>>> it can be done.
There is no obvious way in which a search of Gaza for Hamas members
can be conducted except by the IDF, ready to encounter resistance.
I haven't seen any search.
That rather makes the point, doesn't it?
Just the bombardment of civilian
accommodation in the excuse for looking.
So perhaps it would be better not to try "locating and destroying
Hamas terrorists" and just let that be the end of the matter?
That is what is currently happening. The indiscriminate bombing of
civilians in lieu of locating any Hamas.
And yes if it was the end of th matter , the Israelis would suffer less
loss of life, not be be reinventing genocide, and hence less recruitment
for Hamas. What's not to like?
How has that tactic gone in the past?
On 07/05/2025 11:53 AM, Max Demian wrote:
On 06/05/2025 15:42, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 01:46 PM, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go >>>>> about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way
similar to what they are doing.
Are you now suggesting that ethnic cleansing of Gaza is fully
acceptable
with the excuse of excising Hamas from the land?
No.
I am responding to the exact words used by the PP: "locating and
destroying Hamas terrorists".
That was proffered as though it can be achieved other than by the
means presently being employed.
When asked, the PP cannot suggest a different way (and that, I
suggest, is because we all know that there isn't another way in
present circumstances).
"I'm going to keep on killing kids until you come up with a better
method."
That is certainly one way of putting it.
It isn't a happy situation for anyone, is it?
Can you think of any good reason for the hostages not to be released?
Wouldn't that be a good idea?
On 07/05/2025 15:04, JNugent wrote:
On 07/05/2025 11:53 AM, Max Demian wrote:
On 06/05/2025 15:42, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 01:46 PM, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go >>>>>> about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way >>>>>> similar to what they are doing.
Are you now suggesting that ethnic cleansing of Gaza is fully
acceptable
with the excuse of excising Hamas from the land?
No.
I am responding to the exact words used by the PP: "locating and
destroying Hamas terrorists".
That was proffered as though it can be achieved other than by the
means presently being employed.
When asked, the PP cannot suggest a different way (and that, I
suggest, is because we all know that there isn't another way in
present circumstances).
"I'm going to keep on killing kids until you come up with a better
method."
That is certainly one way of putting it.
It isn't a happy situation for anyone, is it?
Can you think of any good reason for the hostages not to be released?
Wouldn't that be a good idea?
How many kids per hostage?
On 07/05/2025 15:03, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 03:35 PM, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2025 15:24, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:43 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 11:09 AM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 23:34, JNugent wrote:
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
[ ... ]
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal >>>>>>>>>> detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more? >>>>>>>>>> I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why
slaughtering
everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to
concentrate
on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but >>>>>>>>> carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" is >>>>>>>> best approached?
How, do you say, that the British security services managed to
identify
and arrest or eliminate the worst of the IRA terrorists?
For the most obvious of reasons, I have no answer to that except "Did >>>>>> they actually manage to do it?".
Your assertion does not seem to chime with the history we all lived >>>>>> through - but in any case, let's not use it as a diversionary tactic. >>>>>> We are not discussing "The Troubles".
Oh, what, you don't know? Maybe you should apply to join MI5 or
GCHQ or
the SAS. If you're really interested. I mean, did you expect a
detailed
plan from a stranger in Usenet?
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go >>>>>> about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way >>>>>> similar to what they are doing.
Your urging of the "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists"
seems to
be another diversion.
Please be clear: is there another way that the IDF could go about
seeking the neutralisation of Hamas?
If so, what is it (even in very round terms)?
That's what I'd be interested to know. If there is another such
method, clearly, that could change anyone's view of current events. >>>>>> But so far...
Your question is still fatuous.
You could equally ask my advice about how to boost growth in the UK
economy, and my answer would be much the same - there are experts who >>>>> know how these things are done. It isn't up to me to convince you that >>>>> it can be done.
There is no obvious way in which a search of Gaza for Hamas members
can be conducted except by the IDF, ready to encounter resistance.
I haven't seen any search.
That rather makes the point, doesn't it?
Quite, so you agree Israel is carrying out ethnic cleansing. I'm glad we sorted that one.
Just the bombardment of civilian
accommodation in the excuse for looking.
So perhaps it would be better not to try "locating and destroying
Hamas terrorists" and just let that be the end of the matter?
That is what is currently happening. The indiscriminate bombing of
civilians in lieu of locating any Hamas.
And yes if it was the end of th matter , the Israelis would suffer less
loss of life, not be be reinventing genocide, and hence less recruitment >>> for Hamas. What's not to like?
How has that tactic gone in the past?
Far better than the current situation.
On 07/05/2025 06:10 PM, Max Demian wrote:
On 07/05/2025 15:04, JNugent wrote:
On 07/05/2025 11:53 AM, Max Demian wrote:
On 06/05/2025 15:42, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 01:46 PM, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go >>>>>>> about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way >>>>>>> similar to what they are doing.
Are you now suggesting that ethnic cleansing of Gaza is fully
acceptable
with the excuse of excising Hamas from the land?
No.
I am responding to the exact words used by the PP: "locating and
destroying Hamas terrorists".
That was proffered as though it can be achieved other than by the
means presently being employed.
When asked, the PP cannot suggest a different way (and that, I
suggest, is because we all know that there isn't another way in
present circumstances).
"I'm going to keep on killing kids until you come up with a better
method."
That is certainly one way of putting it.
It isn't a happy situation for anyone, is it?
Can you think of any good reason for the hostages not to be released?
Wouldn't that be a good idea?
How many kids per hostage?
What are you talking about?
Don't the hostages have a right to be released?
On 07/05/2025 06:07 PM, Fredxx wrote:
On 07/05/2025 15:03, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 03:35 PM, Fredxx wrote:
On 06/05/2025 15:24, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:43 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 06/05/2025 12:38, JNugent wrote:
On 06/05/2025 11:09 AM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 23:34, JNugent wrote:
On 05/05/2025 11:07 PM, The Todal wrote:
On 05/05/2025 14:19, JNugent wrote:
[ ... ]
What should Israel do now in response to the continued illegal >>>>>>>>>>> detention of innocent Israelis and the murders of many more? >>>>>>>>>>> I am genuinely interested to know.
I think you know. I can't believe you haven't any idea why >>>>>>>>>> slaughtering
everyone is a bad thing, and why it would be better just to >>>>>>>>>> concentrate
on locating and destroying Hamas terrorists.
Israel can't pretend it hasn't the technology to do anything but >>>>>>>>>> carpet-bomb, as if Israel was forced to use WW2 munitions.
How, do you say, that "locating and destroying Hamas
terrorists" is
best approached?
How, do you say, that the British security services managed to >>>>>>>> identify
and arrest or eliminate the worst of the IRA terrorists?
For the most obvious of reasons, I have no answer to that except >>>>>>> "Did
they actually manage to do it?".
Your assertion does not seem to chime with the history we all lived >>>>>>> through - but in any case, let's not use it as a diversionary
tactic.
We are not discussing "The Troubles".
Oh, what, you don't know? Maybe you should apply to join MI5 or >>>>>>>> GCHQ or
the SAS. If you're really interested. I mean, did you expect a >>>>>>>> detailed
plan from a stranger in Usenet?
Not at all, since we both know that there is no way for Israel to go >>>>>>> about "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists" except in some way >>>>>>> similar to what they are doing.
Your urging of the "locating and destroying Hamas terrorists"
seems to
be another diversion.
Please be clear: is there another way that the IDF could go about >>>>>>> seeking the neutralisation of Hamas?
If so, what is it (even in very round terms)?
That's what I'd be interested to know. If there is another such
method, clearly, that could change anyone's view of current events. >>>>>>> But so far...
Your question is still fatuous.
You could equally ask my advice about how to boost growth in the UK >>>>>> economy, and my answer would be much the same - there are experts who >>>>>> know how these things are done. It isn't up to me to convince you
that
it can be done.
There is no obvious way in which a search of Gaza for Hamas members
can be conducted except by the IDF, ready to encounter resistance.
I haven't seen any search.
That rather makes the point, doesn't it?
Quite, so you agree Israel is carrying out ethnic cleansing. I'm glad we
sorted that one.
The point is that we don't really know what IS happening. Your not
having seen something means no more than that you haven't seen it.
Just the bombardment of civilian
accommodation in the excuse for looking.
So perhaps it would be better not to try "locating and destroying
Hamas terrorists" and just let that be the end of the matter?
That is what is currently happening. The indiscriminate bombing of
civilians in lieu of locating any Hamas.
And yes if it was the end of th matter , the Israelis would suffer less >>>> loss of life, not be be reinventing genocide, and hence less
recruitment
for Hamas. What's not to like?
How has that tactic gone in the past?
Far better than the current situation.
You think so?
You don't think it led to October '23?
Anyway, it gave Netanyahu and
the IDF the excuse they needed to rid muslims from Gaza.
On 08/05/2025 16:49, Fredxx wrote:
Anyway, it gave Netanyahu and the IDF the excuse they needed to rid
muslims from Gaza.
But, they haven't done that, have they? It seems a weird statement.
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