So if this costs an owner money (say having to hire a replacement care
whilst the Citroen is off the road) then how best to present the bill to Citroen ? Who presumably will proceed to sue Takata ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0m8872n9gxo
An estimated 120,000 motorists in the UK have been left unable to
drive their [Citroën] cars after a safety alert over a potentially
lethal fault with airbags.
I can only conclude that VW have seen a massive spike in people
contacting them and have made a decision to limit the number of
replacements, perhaps based on the age of the car? The failure rate
increases with temperature and humidity. I wonder whether they also have access to geographic location, perhaps based on where the last MOT
happened?
So if this costs an owner money (say having to hire a replacement care
whilst the Citroen is off the road) then how best to present the bill to Citroen ? Who presumably will proceed to sue Takata ?
I imagine getting the airbag pyrotechnics replaced regularly is now going
to became a thing and certification may be needed in second hand car
sales ?
I see the courts have got involved with car finance of late. Is this
another UK-style class action suit in the brewing ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0m8872n9gxo
An estimated 120,000 motorists in the UK have been left unable to drive
their cars after a safety alert over a potentially lethal fault with
airbags.
The car giant Stellantis recently said people should stop using versions
of the popular Citroen C3 and the related DS3 altogether until they were fixed.
The "stop-drive" instruction came amid growing concerns about the safety
of airbags fitted to these models, following a fatal accident in France
last month.
A number of owners have since told the BBC they face long waits to get
their cars fixed. Stellantis said it was "inevitable" that customers
would be inconvenienced.
On 03/07/2025 09:12 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:a woman was killed in Reims which triggered the 'stop drive' first in France then the UK: https://www.connexionfrance.com/news/fatal-car-crash-in-france-linked-to-faulty-takata-airbag-how-to-check-models-affected/730348
So if this costs an owner money (say having to hire a replacement care whilst the Citroen is off the road) then how best to present the bill to Citroen ? Who presumably will proceed to sue Takata ?
I imagine getting the airbag pyrotechnics replaced regularly is now going to became a thing and certification may be needed in second hand car
sales ?
I see the courts have got involved with car finance of late. Is this another UK-style class action suit in the brewing ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0m8872n9gxo
An estimated 120,000 motorists in the UK have been left unable to drive their cars after a safety alert over a potentially lethal fault with airbags.
That applied to both of our cars - including a C3 - this year (all the
work has now been done).
At no stage was advice given to the effect that the cars should not be
driven before the remedial work was carriedout. I specifically asked
about that when making the appointments as logically, an instruction not
to drive the cars would have meant that a low-loader shuld be sent to
collect each of them.
From news articles, it seems the 'Stop Drive' notice was issued around 20th June. There was a pre-existing airbag recall before then, but on 11th June
Reims being not St Tropez or Reunion, implying even temperate climates
were susceptible. If airbag deployment has a high chance of death, it's understandable why there might be a stop-drive and why even driving to
the dealer is a risk.
JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
On 03/07/2025 09:12 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
So if this costs an owner money (say having to hire a replacement care
whilst the Citroen is off the road) then how best to present the bill to >>> Citroen ? Who presumably will proceed to sue Takata ?
I imagine getting the airbag pyrotechnics replaced regularly is now going >>> to became a thing and certification may be needed in second hand car
sales ?
I see the courts have got involved with car finance of late. Is this
another UK-style class action suit in the brewing ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0m8872n9gxo
An estimated 120,000 motorists in the UK have been left unable to drive
their cars after a safety alert over a potentially lethal fault with
airbags.
That applied to both of our cars - including a C3 - this year (all the
work has now been done).
At no stage was advice given to the effect that the cars should not be
driven before the remedial work was carriedout. I specifically asked
about that when making the appointments as logically, an instruction not
to drive the cars would have meant that a low-loader shuld be sent to
collect each of them.
From news articles, it seems the 'Stop Drive' notice was issued around 20thJune. There was a pre-existing airbag recall before then, but on 11th June
a woman was killed in Reims which triggered the 'stop drive' first in France then the UK: https://www.connexionfrance.com/news/fatal-car-crash-in-france-linked-to-faulty-takata-airbag-how-to-check-models-affected/730348
Reims being not St Tropez or Reunion, implying even temperate climates were susceptible. If airbag deployment has a high chance of death, it's understandable why there might be a stop-drive and why even driving to the dealer is a risk.
I'm guessing your C3 was recalled before then, and so the 'stop drive'
didn't reach you before the fault was rectified.
Alan J. Wylie <alan@wylie.me.uk> wrote:
I can only conclude that VW have seen a massive spike in people
contacting them and have made a decision to limit the number of
replacements, perhaps based on the age of the car? The failure rate
increases with temperature and humidity. I wonder whether they also have
access to geographic location, perhaps based on where the last MOT
happened?
The DVLA have the location of the registered keeper. I think VW could ask them to send a recall notice to keepers located in <geographic filter>. I'm not sure they will be able to download that information from DVLA for their own database, although if you are registered on the VW system then they already know your registered address.
Should be said that, of the French incidents, 16 of the 18 were in overseas territories where it's presumably warmer than metropolitan France. But if it's 35+C here that's not too different, although it depends how hot the interior gets of cars parked in the sun. (something something latitude something sun angles etc)
A legal question also occurs to me. If an MOT is due soon, the airbag
won't be replaced in time, and you have no off-road parking, so can't
SORN it, what are you to do? The Government is going to have to make
some rule changes.
Alan J. Wylie <alan@wylie.me.uk> wrote:
A legal question also occurs to me. If an MOT is due soon, the airbag
won't be replaced in time, and you have no off-road parking, so can't
SORN it, what are you to do? The Government is going to have to make
some rule changes.
You can presumably trailer it to the MOT centre and push it onto the
MOT ramp. An MOT test is performed without having to do anything which
might trigger the airbag.
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
Alan J. Wylie <alan@wylie.me.uk> wrote:
I can only conclude that VW have seen a massive spike in people
contacting them and have made a decision to limit the number of
replacements, perhaps based on the age of the car? The failure rate
increases with temperature and humidity. I wonder whether they also have >>> access to geographic location, perhaps based on where the last MOT
happened?
The DVLA have the location of the registered keeper. I think VW could ask >> them to send a recall notice to keepers located in <geographic filter>. I'm >> not sure they will be able to download that information from DVLA for their >> own database, although if you are registered on the VW system then they
already know your registered address.
Should be said that, of the French incidents, 16 of the 18 were in overseas >> territories where it's presumably warmer than metropolitan France. But if >> it's 35+C here that's not too different, although it depends how hot the
interior gets of cars parked in the sun. (something something latitude
something sun angles etc)
I've just checked my VIN on the VW recalls page, entering different countries. For the UK, still no recall. Neither for France, but there is
one for Spain. (BTW, VW should do better than providing German country
names in the pull down list - it won't be obvious to many that here you
need to look for "Großbritannien"). It's apparent that the latitude of
the country is being taken into account (although Reims, where the
fatality occurred is well north of Spain).
A legal question also occurs to me. If an MOT is due soon, the airbag
won't be replaced in time, and you have no off-road parking, so can't
SORN it, what are you to do? The Government is going to have to make
some rule changes.
https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot
| You cannot drive or park your vehicle on the road if the MOT has run
| out. You can be prosecuted if caught.
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
Alan J. Wylie <alan@wylie.me.uk> wrote:
I can only conclude that VW have seen a massive spike in people
contacting them and have made a decision to limit the number of
replacements, perhaps based on the age of the car? The failure rate
increases with temperature and humidity. I wonder whether they also have >>> access to geographic location, perhaps based on where the last MOT
happened?
The DVLA have the location of the registered keeper. I think VW could ask >> them to send a recall notice to keepers located in <geographic filter>. I'm >> not sure they will be able to download that information from DVLA for their >> own database, although if you are registered on the VW system then they
already know your registered address.
Should be said that, of the French incidents, 16 of the 18 were in overseas >> territories where it's presumably warmer than metropolitan France. But if >> it's 35+C here that's not too different, although it depends how hot the
interior gets of cars parked in the sun. (something something latitude
something sun angles etc)
I've just checked my VIN on the VW recalls page, entering different countries. For the UK, still no recall. Neither for France, but there is
one for Spain. (BTW, VW should do better than providing German country
names in the pull down list - it won't be obvious to many that here you
need to look for "Großbritannien"). It's apparent that the latitude of
the country is being taken into account (although Reims, where the
fatality occurred is well north of Spain).
A legal question also occurs to me. If an MOT is due soon, the airbag
won't be replaced in time, and you have no off-road parking, so can't
SORN it, what are you to do? The Government is going to have to make
some rule changes.
https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot
| You cannot drive or park your vehicle on the road if the MOT has run
| out. You can be prosecuted if caught.
On 2025-07-07 13:01, Alan J. Wylie wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
Alan J. Wylie <alan@wylie.me.uk> wrote:
I can only conclude that VW have seen a massive spike in people
contacting them and have made a decision to limit the number of
replacements, perhaps based on the age of the car? The failure rate
increases with temperature and humidity. I wonder whether they also
have
access to geographic location, perhaps based on where the last MOT
happened?
The DVLA have the location of the registered keeper. I think VW
could ask
them to send a recall notice to keepers located in <geographic
filter>. I'm
not sure they will be able to download that information from DVLA for
their
own database, although if you are registered on the VW system then they
already know your registered address.
Should be said that, of the French incidents, 16 of the 18 were in
overseas
territories where it's presumably warmer than metropolitan France.
But if
it's 35+C here that's not too different, although it depends how hot the >>> interior gets of cars parked in the sun. (something something latitude >>> something sun angles etc)
I've just checked my VIN on the VW recalls page, entering different
countries. For the UK, still no recall. Neither for France, but there is
one for Spain. (BTW, VW should do better than providing German country
names in the pull down list - it won't be obvious to many that here you
need to look for "Großbritannien"). It's apparent that the latitude of
the country is being taken into account (although Reims, where the
fatality occurred is well north of Spain).
A legal question also occurs to me. If an MOT is due soon, the airbag
won't be replaced in time, and you have no off-road parking, so can't
SORN it, what are you to do? The Government is going to have to make
some rule changes.
https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot
| You cannot drive or park your vehicle on the road if the MOT has run
| out. You can be prosecuted if caught.
One of my acquaintances, who has a Citroen C3, has been given a time for
the dealer to come to him and fix it of the middle of this week. If it actually happens that won't be too bad.
nib
On 07/07/2025 01:01 PM, Alan J. Wylie wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
Alan J. Wylie <alan@wylie.me.uk> wrote:
I can only conclude that VW have seen a massive spike in people
contacting them and have made a decision to limit the number of
replacements, perhaps based on the age of the car? The failure rate
increases with temperature and humidity. I wonder whether they also
have
access to geographic location, perhaps based on where the last MOT
happened?
The DVLA have the location of the registered keeper. I think VW
could ask
them to send a recall notice to keepers located in <geographic
filter>. I'm
not sure they will be able to download that information from DVLA for
their
own database, although if you are registered on the VW system then they
already know your registered address.
Should be said that, of the French incidents, 16 of the 18 were in
overseas
territories where it's presumably warmer than metropolitan France.
But if
it's 35+C here that's not too different, although it depends how hot the >>> interior gets of cars parked in the sun. (something something latitude >>> something sun angles etc)
I've just checked my VIN on the VW recalls page, entering different
countries. For the UK, still no recall. Neither for France, but there is
one for Spain. (BTW, VW should do better than providing German country
names in the pull down list - it won't be obvious to many that here you
need to look for "Großbritannien"). It's apparent that the latitude of
the country is being taken into account (although Reims, where the
fatality occurred is well north of Spain).
A legal question also occurs to me. If an MOT is due soon, the airbag
won't be replaced in time, and you have no off-road parking, so can't
SORN it, what are you to do? The Government is going to have to make
some rule changes.
That particular issue - specifically, MOT failures awaitig repair and
where to store them in cases where off-street space is not available -
has come up many times in the past. No government has ever seen fit to
water down the requirements of the Road Traffic Acts in order to
accommodate the owners of such vehicles. And that is very probably the
wisest course of action.
After all, if using a vehicle on the road while not having a current MOT
is somehow acceptable, why not extend it to Road Tax (an offence which
goes almost hand-in-hand with the "no MOT" problem)? And if the
requirements for Road Tax and MOT certificate were overlooked, why not
extend that to the lack of insurance?
The thin end of a wedge.
https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot
| You cannot drive or park your vehicle on the road if the MOT has run
| out. You can be prosecuted if caught.
On 08/07/2025 13:07, JNugent wrote:
On 07/07/2025 01:01 PM, Alan J. Wylie wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
Alan J. Wylie <alan@wylie.me.uk> wrote:
I can only conclude that VW have seen a massive spike in people
contacting them and have made a decision to limit the number of
replacements, perhaps based on the age of the car? The failure rate
increases with temperature and humidity. I wonder whether they also
have access to geographic location, perhaps based on where the last
MOT happened?
The DVLA have the location of the registered keeper. I think VW
could ask them to send a recall notice to keepers located in
<geographic filter>. I'm not sure they will be able to download
that information from DVLA for their own database, although if
you are registered on the VW system then they already know your
registered address.
Should be said that, of the French incidents, 16 of the 18 were in
overseas territories where it's presumably warmer than metropolitan
France. But if it's 35+C here that's not too different, although it
depends how hot the interior gets of cars parked in the sun.
(something something latitude something sun angles etc)
I've just checked my VIN on the VW recalls page, entering different
countries. For the UK, still no recall. Neither for France, but there is >>> one for Spain. (BTW, VW should do better than providing German country
names in the pull down list - it won't be obvious to many that here you
need to look for "Großbritannien"). It's apparent that the latitude of
the country is being taken into account (although Reims, where the
fatality occurred is well north of Spain).
A legal question also occurs to me. If an MOT is due soon, the airbag
won't be replaced in time, and you have no off-road parking, so can't
SORN it, what are you to do? The Government is going to have to make
some rule changes.
That particular issue - specifically, MOT failures awaitig repair and
where to store them in cases where off-street space is not available -
has come up many times in the past. No government has ever seen fit to
water down the requirements of the Road Traffic Acts in order to
accommodate the owners of such vehicles. And that is very probably the
wisest course of action.
I'm not convinced.
Having a vehicle parked up static by the roadside is entirely different
to driving it.
Unless you live on a steep hill and it is the parking
brake that has failed. There is an exemption too for driving one to an
MOT test centre booked test (although I presume it must be road worthy
for that and not obviously in a dangerous state with bits hanging off).
After all, if using a vehicle on the road while not having a current
MOT is somehow acceptable, why not extend it to Road Tax (an offence
which goes almost hand-in-hand with the "no MOT" problem)? And if the
requirements for Road Tax and MOT certificate were overlooked, why not
extend that to the lack of insurance?
I recently found myself driving without road tax because of a mistake by DVLA, and so lack of any reminder or magic number to make the payment.
It was checking for the MOT anniversary date of the new to me car that alerted me to the fact that the road tax had run out at the end of the previous month and not as I had thought just after the MOT.
The thin end of a wedge.
What *was* completely crazy was that I could not *pay* the road tax
without SORNing the thing for 3 weeks and becoming properly the
registered keeper with DVLA and in possession of a correctly issued V5C.
If you are willing to pay the Road Tax for a designated vehicle I don't
see why they should care if you can quote the magic number on a V5C. The
bank account details provide sufficient traceability on who has paid.
https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot
| You cannot drive or park your vehicle on the road if the MOT has run
| out. You can be prosecuted if caught.
There are so many cars in cities these days with no off street parking
that I presume the police turn a blind eye to this offence. All parked
bumper to bumper so checking them would require real effort.
On 10/07/2025 02:39 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/07/2025 13:07, JNugent wrote:
On 07/07/2025 01:01 PM, Alan J. Wylie wrote:
That particular issue - specifically, MOT failures awaitig repair and
where to store them in cases where off-street space is not available -
has come up many times in the past. No government has ever seen fit to
water down the requirements of the Road Traffic Acts in order to
accommodate the owners of such vehicles. And that is very probably the
wisest course of action.
Having a vehicle parked up static by the roadside is entirely different
to driving it.
But what's the difference? If it is "alright" for a vehicle to be used (that's the correct term) on the road because the MOT test can't be
doe (or paid for) until a later date, why wouldn't the same apply to insurance (as long as the owner made a solemn promise not to drive
it)?
JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> writes:
On 10/07/2025 02:39 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/07/2025 13:07, JNugent wrote:
On 07/07/2025 01:01 PM, Alan J. Wylie wrote:
That particular issue - specifically, MOT failures awaitig repair and
where to store them in cases where off-street space is not available - >>>> has come up many times in the past. No government has ever seen fit to >>>> water down the requirements of the Road Traffic Acts in order to
accommodate the owners of such vehicles. And that is very probably the >>>> wisest course of action.
Having a vehicle parked up static by the roadside is entirely different
to driving it.
But what's the difference? If it is "alright" for a vehicle to be used
(that's the correct term) on the road because the MOT test can't be
doe (or paid for) until a later date, why wouldn't the same apply to
insurance (as long as the owner made a solemn promise not to drive
it)?
The difference is that the owner would like nothing better than to drive
the vehicle to the MOT testing station. They are being prevented from
doing so by an instruction of opaque legality coming from the
manufacturer of the car, insurance companies and the DVLA, and which is entirely beyond the owner's control.
They have paid their insurance, but are losing out on that part of the premium allocated to incidents while the vehicle is in motion.
If the police start ticketing just a small number of vehicles at random, there will be a massive backlash. Ticketing a hundred thousand plus will similarly cause a furore.
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