Does a Local Authority have a statutory duty to keep its online
definitive map up to date?
Ours still says "last update March 2021" and there have been many >Modification Orders passed since then.
In message <mf16apFbhdhU1@mid.individual.net>, at 13:36:35 on Thu, 31
Jul 2025, Kempshott <kempshott@invalid.uk> remarked:
Does a Local Authority have a statutory duty to keep its online
definitive map up to date?
Ours still says "last update March 2021" and there have been many
Modification Orders passed since then.
I bet there's a lot of pre-2021 changes not on it either. I've had cause
to look at these maps in the past, and they are often woefully out of date.
On 2025-08-01, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 31/07/2025 18:34, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <mf16apFbhdhU1@mid.individual.net>, at 13:36:35 on Thu, 31It is pot luck what is and what is not included on the definitive maps.
Jul 2025, Kempshott <kempshott@invalid.uk> remarked:
Does a Local Authority have a statutory duty to keep its online
definitive map up to date?
Ours still says "last update March 2021" and there have been many
Modification Orders passed since then.
I bet there's a lot of pre-2021 changes not on it either. I've had cause >>> to look at these maps in the past, and they are often woefully out of date. >>
I suspect form the name that they are supposed to be maintained but if
you know an area well it isn't hard to find recent changes that are
missing. Updating them doesn't seem to be a high priority.
There's either two possibilities, and I think the answer could be either depending on which local authority it is.
Either it isn't "the Definitive Map" at all, it's just an online map,
in which case I would expect there's no statutory duty to update it.
It might claim to reflect information from the Definitive Map, but
that doesn't make it definitive itself.
Or, it is "the Definitive Map", in which case it is, er, definitive.
If it shows a right of way exists, then it does, and if it doesn't,
it doesn't. If they haven't updated it to show rights of way that
the council intended to create, then they haven't created them.
On 31/07/2025 18:34, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <mf16apFbhdhU1@mid.individual.net>, at 13:36:35 on Thu, 31
Jul 2025, Kempshott <kempshott@invalid.uk> remarked:
Does a Local Authority have a statutory duty to keep its online
definitive map up to date?
Ours still says "last update March 2021" and there have been many
Modification Orders passed since then.
I bet there's a lot of pre-2021 changes not on it either. I've had cause
to look at these maps in the past, and they are often woefully out of date.
It is pot luck what is and what is not included on the definitive maps.
I suspect form the name that they are supposed to be maintained but if
you know an area well it isn't hard to find recent changes that are
missing. Updating them doesn't seem to be a high priority.
There's either two possibilities, and I think the answer could be either >depending on which local authority it is.
Either it isn't "the Definitive Map" at all, it's just an online map,
in which case I would expect there's no statutory duty to update it.
It might claim to reflect information from the Definitive Map, but
that doesn't make it definitive itself.
Or, it is "the Definitive Map", in which case it is, er, definitive.
If it shows a right of way exists, then it does, and if it doesn't,
it doesn't. If they haven't updated it to show rights of way that
the council intended to create, then they haven't created them.
In message <slrn108pjme.4gj.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>, at
14:27:26 on Fri, 1 Aug 2025, Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> remarked:
There's either two possibilities, and I think the answer could be either
depending on which local authority it is.
Either it isn't "the Definitive Map" at all, it's just an online map,
in which case I would expect there's no statutory duty to update it.
It might claim to reflect information from the Definitive Map, but
that doesn't make it definitive itself.
Or, it is "the Definitive Map", in which case it is, er, definitive.
The Cambridgeshire one's web page is titled "Definitive Map".
If it shows a right of way exists, then it does, and if it doesn't,
it doesn't. If they haven't updated it to show rights of way that
the council intended to create, then they haven't created them.
Are you suggesting it's like TROs without matching road signage, not in
force until both parts have been fully executed?
On 1 Aug 2025 at 15:27:26 BST, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2025-08-01, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 31/07/2025 18:34, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <mf16apFbhdhU1@mid.individual.net>, at 13:36:35 on Thu, 31
Jul 2025, Kempshott <kempshott@invalid.uk> remarked:
Does a Local Authority have a statutory duty to keep its online
definitive map up to date?
Ours still says "last update March 2021" and there have been many
Modification Orders passed since then.
I bet there's a lot of pre-2021 changes not on it either. I've had cause >>>> to look at these maps in the past, and they are often woefully out of date.
It is pot luck what is and what is not included on the definitive maps.
I suspect form the name that they are supposed to be maintained but if
you know an area well it isn't hard to find recent changes that are
missing. Updating them doesn't seem to be a high priority.
There's either two possibilities, and I think the answer could be either
depending on which local authority it is.
Either it isn't "the Definitive Map" at all, it's just an online map,
in which case I would expect there's no statutory duty to update it.
It might claim to reflect information from the Definitive Map, but
that doesn't make it definitive itself.
Or, it is "the Definitive Map", in which case it is, er, definitive.
If it shows a right of way exists, then it does, and if it doesn't,
it doesn't. If they haven't updated it to show rights of way that
the council intended to create, then they haven't created them.
I agree that this is the apparent legal situation. But it may be that a third possibility exists: that the 'definitive map' actually exists in a state which
entails an old map and a set of approved amendments to it which together constitutes the 'definitive map'. It is not impossible that a court would accept this as the least worst interpretation.
On 01/08/2025 15:54, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 1 Aug 2025 at 15:27:26 BST, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
wrote:
On 2025-08-01, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 31/07/2025 18:34, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <mf16apFbhdhU1@mid.individual.net>, at 13:36:35 on Thu, 31 >>>>> Jul 2025, Kempshott <kempshott@invalid.uk> remarked:
Does a Local Authority have a statutory duty to keep its online
definitive map up to date?
Ours still says "last update March 2021" and there have been many
Modification Orders passed since then.
I bet there's a lot of pre-2021 changes not on it either. I've had cause >>>>> to look at these maps in the past, and they are often woefully out of date.
It is pot luck what is and what is not included on the definitive maps. >>>>
I suspect form the name that they are supposed to be maintained but if >>>> you know an area well it isn't hard to find recent changes that are
missing. Updating them doesn't seem to be a high priority.
There's either two possibilities, and I think the answer could be either >>> depending on which local authority it is.
Either it isn't "the Definitive Map" at all, it's just an online map,
in which case I would expect there's no statutory duty to update it.
It might claim to reflect information from the Definitive Map, but
that doesn't make it definitive itself.
Or, it is "the Definitive Map", in which case it is, er, definitive.
If it shows a right of way exists, then it does, and if it doesn't,
it doesn't. If they haven't updated it to show rights of way that
the council intended to create, then they haven't created them.
I agree that this is the apparent legal situation. But it may be that
a third possibility exists: that the 'definitive map' actually exists
in a state which entails an old map and a set of approved amendments
to it which together constitutes the 'definitive map'. It is not
impossible that a court would accept this as the least worst
interpretation.
The council website says "The publication of a new Definitive Map has
been a priority for the Council, and this was achieved when the first
digital version of the Map was published on the 12 March 2021".
That's followed by a link to maps.arcgis.com and the map is titled "Definitive Map of Public Rights of Way" so it seems to be "the"
definitive map, just rather out-of-date.
I agree that this is the apparent legal situation. But it may be that a third >possibility exists: that the 'definitive map' actually exists in a state which >entails an old map and a set of approved amendments to it which together >constitutes the 'definitive map'.
Does a Local Authority have a statutory duty to keep its online
definitive map up to date?
Ours still says "last update March 2021" and there have been many >Modification Orders passed since then.
In message <slrn108pjme.4gj.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>, at
14:27:26 on Fri, 1 Aug 2025, Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> >remarked:
There's either two possibilities, and I think the answer could be either >>depending on which local authority it is.
Either it isn't "the Definitive Map" at all, it's just an online map,
in which case I would expect there's no statutory duty to update it.
It might claim to reflect information from the Definitive Map, but
that doesn't make it definitive itself.
Or, it is "the Definitive Map", in which case it is, er, definitive.
The Cambridgeshire one's web page is titled "Definitive Map".
On 1 Aug 2025 14:54:27 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
I agree that this is the apparent legal situation. But it may be that a third
possibility exists: that the 'definitive map' actually exists in a state which
entails an old map and a set of approved amendments to it which together
constitutes the 'definitive map'.
This is precisely correct, yes.
The "definitive map", as published, is a snapshot in time. It is (or should be) a perfect representation of the situation on the ground at the time it
is published. However, there is no obligation to re-publish it every time there is a modification. Provided the modifications are stored with the most recent publication of the map, the map is still definitive even though it will become increasingly out of date. That is, the legal situation comprises the map and all associated MMOs, not the map alone.
This situation dates back, of course, to the time when the definitive map
was on paper, rather than digital (and even older, when the definitive map was hand-drawn lines on paper). These days, it would be possible to insist that a digital version of the map is updated appropriately every time there is an MMO. But no such legal obligation yet exists, and councils have enough other competing demands for resources without adding one that they are not obliged to.
Mark
On 1 Aug 2025 at 21:29:29 BST, "Mark Goodge" ><usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
The "definitive map", as published, is a snapshot in time. It is (or should >> be) a perfect representation of the situation on the ground at the time it >> is published. However, there is no obligation to re-publish it every time
there is a modification. Provided the modifications are stored with the most >> recent publication of the map, the map is still definitive even though it
will become increasingly out of date. That is, the legal situation comprises >> the map and all associated MMOs, not the map alone.
This situation dates back, of course, to the time when the definitive map
was on paper, rather than digital (and even older, when the definitive map >> was hand-drawn lines on paper). These days, it would be possible to insist >> that a digital version of the map is updated appropriately every time there >> is an MMO. But no such legal obligation yet exists, and councils have enough >> other competing demands for resources without adding one that they are not >> obliged to.
If amendments had to be published as digital maps according to a defined >format then it would be a simple matter of programming to immediately >incorporate them in the current digital definitive map. Possibly.
On 1 Aug 2025 20:48:43 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 1 Aug 2025 at 21:29:29 BST, "Mark Goodge"
<usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
The "definitive map", as published, is a snapshot in time. It is (or should >>> be) a perfect representation of the situation on the ground at the time it >>> is published. However, there is no obligation to re-publish it every time >>> there is a modification. Provided the modifications are stored with the most
recent publication of the map, the map is still definitive even though it >>> will become increasingly out of date. That is, the legal situation comprises
the map and all associated MMOs, not the map alone.
This situation dates back, of course, to the time when the definitive map >>> was on paper, rather than digital (and even older, when the definitive map >>> was hand-drawn lines on paper). These days, it would be possible to insist >>> that a digital version of the map is updated appropriately every time there >>> is an MMO. But no such legal obligation yet exists, and councils have enough
other competing demands for resources without adding one that they are not >>> obliged to.
If amendments had to be published as digital maps according to a defined
format then it would be a simple matter of programming to immediately
incorporate them in the current digital definitive map. Possibly.
Yes, but the legislation currently requires the definitive map to be
viewable in person, offline. The current legislation predates the Internet. So it would need a change of legislation to make a digital version
definitive in itself, rather than merely a copy of the definitive map.
Mark
On 1 Aug 2025 20:48:43 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 1 Aug 2025 at 21:29:29 BST, "Mark Goodge"
<usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
The "definitive map", as published, is a snapshot in time. It is (or should >>> be) a perfect representation of the situation on the ground at the time it >>> is published. However, there is no obligation to re-publish it every time >>> there is a modification. Provided the modifications are stored with the most
recent publication of the map, the map is still definitive even though it >>> will become increasingly out of date. That is, the legal situation comprises
the map and all associated MMOs, not the map alone.
This situation dates back, of course, to the time when the definitive map >>> was on paper, rather than digital (and even older, when the definitive map >>> was hand-drawn lines on paper). These days, it would be possible to insist >>> that a digital version of the map is updated appropriately every time there >>> is an MMO. But no such legal obligation yet exists, and councils have enough
other competing demands for resources without adding one that they are not >>> obliged to.
If amendments had to be published as digital maps according to a defined
format then it would be a simple matter of programming to immediately
incorporate them in the current digital definitive map. Possibly.
Yes, but the legislation currently requires the definitive map to be
viewable in person, offline. The current legislation predates the Internet. So it would need a change of legislation to make a digital version
definitive in itself, rather than merely a copy of the definitive map.
On 01/08/2025 22:11, Mark Goodge wrote:
Yes, but the legislation currently requires the definitive map to be
viewable in person, offline. The current legislation predates the Internet. >> So it would need a change of legislation to make a digital version
definitive in itself, rather than merely a copy of the definitive map.
Would the legislation be satisfied if someone who wished to view the map
in person, was given access to the digital map on a computer in the
local authority offices?
I'm reminded of the elderly couple who turned up at Broadcasting house
in order to "visit the BBC web site" - as they had so often been
exhorted to do.
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