Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

--
Cheers, Rob

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

Saw that. Tesla have being doing it for a while for some advanced features
but not for a f*cking resistive element that’s already built in!

I think BMW will either lose customers or quietly lose the subscription
idea for anything so basic.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 19/07/2022 18:12, Tim+ wrote:

RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

Saw that. Tesla have being doing it for a while for some advanced features but not for a f*cking resistive element that’s already built in!

I think BMW will either lose customers or quietly lose the subscription
idea for anything so basic.

Tim

In a EV is probably better to heat the driver and passenger via heated seat/steering wheel rather than the whole cabin so they are probably
banking on 100% take-up.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"RJH" <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote in message news:tb6275$11nbg$1@dont-email.me...

Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

I pointed out in another forum that this sounds like a fairly logical
response to the way vehicle taxation works in countries where certain tax elements are based on the original sale price. I know that in the
Netherlands leasing companies buy cars with the most basic trim level and
then send them to specialist companies to have all the options and premium
trim fitted. This can mean replacing a brand new cloth interior with
leather, for example.

In terms of the whole life cost for the car I can see it being a lot cheaper
to fit certain options at the factory and then recover costs later via activation fees.

--
DAS

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 19/07/2022 18:12, Tim+ wrote:

RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

Saw that. Tesla have being doing it for a while for some advanced features >> but not for a f*cking resistive element that’s already built in!

I think BMW will either lose customers or quietly lose the subscription
idea for anything so basic.

Tim

In a EV is probably better to heat the driver and passenger via heated seat/steering wheel rather than the whole cabin so they are probably
banking on 100% take-up.

True, but who’s gonna buy a car from a company that holds basic features to ransom? Besides, the electric BMWs are hideous. ;-)

There are plenty of makers who won’t screw you for heated seats.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 19/07/2022 19:51, D A Stocks wrote:

"RJH" <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote in message news:tb6275$11nbg$1@dont-email.me...

Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

I pointed out in another forum that this sounds like a fairly logical response to the way vehicle taxation works in countries where certain
tax elements are based on the original sale price. I know that in the Netherlands leasing companies buy cars with the most basic trim level
and then send them to specialist companies to have all the options and premium trim fitted. This can mean replacing a brand new cloth interior
with leather, for example.

In terms of the whole life cost for the car I can see it being a lot
cheaper to fit certain options at the factory and then recover costs
later via activation fees.

--
DAS

The Dutch taxman may be naive but isn't the HMRC wise to things like that?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I pointed out in another forum that this sounds like a fairly logical response to the way vehicle taxation works in countries where certain
tax elements are based on the original sale price. I know that in the Netherlands leasing companies buy cars with the most basic trim level
and then send them to specialist companies to have all the options and premium trim fitted. This can mean replacing a brand new cloth interior
with leather, for example.

In terms of the whole life cost for the car I can see it being a lot
cheaper to fit certain options at the factory and then recover costs
later via activation fees.

--
DAS

another triumph of the single European market ?



--
random signature text inserted here

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 20/07/2022 09:14, Peter Hill wrote:

On 19/07/2022 19:51, D A Stocks wrote:

"RJH" <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote in message
news:tb6275$11nbg$1@dont-email.me...

Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

I pointed out in another forum that this sounds like a fairly logical
response to the way vehicle taxation works in countries where certain
tax elements are based on the original sale price. I know that in the
Netherlands leasing companies buy cars with the most basic trim level
and then send them to specialist companies to have all the options and
premium trim fitted. This can mean replacing a brand new cloth
interior with leather, for example.

In terms of the whole life cost for the car I can see it being a lot
cheaper to fit certain options at the factory and then recover costs
later via activation fees.

--
DAS

The Dutch taxman may be naive but isn't the HMRC wise to things like that?

Yes - but the trick could still work to avoid the additional VED on some
cars with a list price over £40,000.

HMRC are well aware of the issue. The benefit in kind charge on a
company car has depended on its "list price" since 1994. That price
includes accessories fitted at any time.

The same definition of "list price" is used for the additional VED on
cars costing over £40,000 but there does /not/ include accessories
fitted after the car is first registered. I don't know why but guess
that HMRC baulked at the complexity and cost (to them and the trade) of
setting up a whole new system of returns. They may well have told the
trade they would act if there's evidence of abuse at scale.








--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 20/07/2022 10:42, Robin wrote:

On 20/07/2022 09:14, Peter Hill wrote:

On 19/07/2022 19:51, D A Stocks wrote:

"RJH" <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote in message
news:tb6275$11nbg$1@dont-email.me...

Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

I pointed out in another forum that this sounds like a fairly logical
response to the way vehicle taxation works in countries where certain
tax elements are based on the original sale price. I know that in the
Netherlands leasing companies buy cars with the most basic trim level
and then send them to specialist companies to have all the options
and premium trim fitted. This can mean replacing a brand new cloth
interior with leather, for example.

In terms of the whole life cost for the car I can see it being a lot
cheaper to fit certain options at the factory and then recover costs
later via activation fees.

--
DAS

The Dutch taxman may be naive but isn't the HMRC wise to things like
that?

Yes - but the trick could still work to avoid the additional VED on some
cars with a list price over £40,000.

HMRC are well aware of the issue.  The benefit in kind charge on a
company car has depended on its "list price" since 1994. That price
includes accessories fitted at any time.

The same definition of "list price" is used for the additional VED on
cars costing over £40,000 but there does /not/ include accessories
fitted after the car is first registered.  I don't know why but guess
that HMRC baulked at the complexity and cost (to them and the trade) of setting up a whole new system of returns.  They may well have told the
trade they would act if there's evidence of abuse at scale.

HMRC are more likely to have baulked at the impossibility of the task
(since complexity seems to be their trademark)

Privately owned and registered cars are subject to the same VED regime
as company cars, so an aftermarket set of alloy wheels (just as an
example) would need to have a different VAT rate depending on the end
user, and possibly a different rate depending on the value of any
company car which they are fitted to - leaving wholesalers of alloy
wheels in a rather difficult position.

In more than 40 years of self-employment / freelancing / whatever I have
never bothered with claiming for a company car as it’s much easier to
claim private car mileage, and if the mileage piles up during the
financial year then just register a different car (maybe like the one
that my wife drives ?)

My general impression is that company cars are dying out quite a bit
anyway and that accountants have found better ways to get things done,
often involving contract hired pool cars.



Getting back to the OP however ... I am wondering if some of these power
hungry gizmos, like seat / mirror / screen heaters, demisters, aircon
etc will need to be thought about in terms of the amount of battery
power which they will consume on electric vehicles. I assume that most
electric cars are fitted with power steering too ?


--
random signature text inserted here

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

Saw that. Tesla have being doing it for a while for some advanced features but not for a f*cking resistive element that’s already built in!

Tesla has been known to revoke rights to the features when the car is sold second hand. So that Tesla where somebody paid for Full Self Driving (which has never worked as promised) can have it removed when it's sold on later. https://thenextweb.com/news/tesla-autopilot-surreptitiously-taken-now-given-back-alec-model-s

I don't know if that's legal in the US, but suspect it wouldn't fly in the
EU (due to the Doctrine of First Sale).

Theo

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Abandoned_Trolley <fred@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:

Getting back to the OP however ... I am wondering if some of these power hungry gizmos, like seat / mirror / screen heaters, demisters, aircon
etc will need to be thought about in terms of the amount of battery
power which they will consume on electric vehicles.

What makes you think they aren’t thought about?

I assume that most
electric cars are fitted with power steering too ?

Yep. Power consumption by all these ancillaries doesn’t really amount to
much compared to the overall battery capacity apart from cabin heating.
Heated seats and steering wheel use a lot less power than cabin heating and
it makes sense when possible to uses these instead if you want to maximise range in cold weather.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 20/07/2022 15:25, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:

On 20/07/2022 10:42, Robin wrote:

On 20/07/2022 09:14, Peter Hill wrote:

On 19/07/2022 19:51, D A Stocks wrote:

"RJH" <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote in message
news:tb6275$11nbg$1@dont-email.me...

Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

I pointed out in another forum that this sounds like a fairly
logical response to the way vehicle taxation works in countries
where certain tax elements are based on the original sale price. I
know that in the Netherlands leasing companies buy cars with the
most basic trim level and then send them to specialist companies to
have all the options and premium trim fitted. This can mean
replacing a brand new cloth interior with leather, for example.

In terms of the whole life cost for the car I can see it being a lot
cheaper to fit certain options at the factory and then recover costs
later via activation fees.

--
DAS

The Dutch taxman may be naive but isn't the HMRC wise to things like
that?

Yes - but the trick could still work to avoid the additional VED on
some cars with a list price over £40,000.

HMRC are well aware of the issue.  The benefit in kind charge on a
company car has depended on its "list price" since 1994. That price
includes accessories fitted at any time.

The same definition of "list price" is used for the additional VED on
cars costing over £40,000 but there does /not/ include accessories
fitted after the car is first registered.  I don't know why but guess
that HMRC baulked at the complexity and cost (to them and the trade)
of setting up a whole new system of returns.  They may well have told
the trade they would act if there's evidence of abuse at scale.

HMRC are more likely to have baulked at the impossibility of the task
(since complexity seems to be their trademark)

Privately owned and registered cars are subject to the same VED regime
as company cars, so an aftermarket set of alloy wheels (just as an
example) would need to have a different VAT rate depending on the end
user, and possibly a different rate depending on the value of any
company car which they are fitted to - leaving wholesalers of alloy
wheels in a rather difficult position.

My point was simply that the income tax legislation for the price of a
company car is used for the additional VED charge but without dealing
with accessories fitted later. That does of course apply to all cars.

VAT is separate; and there's no problem with accessories for VAT because
it applies whether extras are fitted before or after registration.




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

Yes - but the trick could still work to avoid the additional VED on some
cars with a list price over £40,000.

That sounds quite plausible - a number of their offerings are in the
£35k-40k bracket and if you were to load up all the software options it's
not implausible they might take you over.

Also it should be noted some options aren't subscription, they're one-time purchases. So it's still possible to get a cheaper base car and then buy options later. As I suppose you always could do with fitting fancier alloys
or whatever after purchase.

HMRC are well aware of the issue. The benefit in kind charge on a
company car has depended on its "list price" since 1994. That price
includes accessories fitted at any time.

If I buy some fancy alloys after owning it for some time, does the HMRC list price go up? So the list price is the sum of every time spent on the car
since it's manufacture? (neglecting consumable items like oil and tyres)

Would a subscription mean I'd have to add up the cost of N months of heated seats to get the current 'list price'?

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 20/07/2022 22:21, Theo wrote:

Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

Yes - but the trick could still work to avoid the additional VED on some
cars with a list price over £40,000.

That sounds quite plausible - a number of their offerings are in the £35k-40k bracket and if you were to load up all the software options it's not implausible they might take you over.

Also it should be noted some options aren't subscription, they're one-time purchases. So it's still possible to get a cheaper base car and then buy options later. As I suppose you always could do with fitting fancier alloys or whatever after purchase.

HMRC are well aware of the issue. The benefit in kind charge on a
company car has depended on its "list price" since 1994. That price
includes accessories fitted at any time.

If I buy some fancy alloys after owning it for some time, does the HMRC list price go up?

Only if it's a "company car" you make available for someone else's
private use.

So the list price is the sum of every time spent on the car
since it's manufacture? (neglecting consumable items like oil and tyres)

You only increase the list price for replacements if the new is superior
to the old - e.g. leather in place of fabric seats.

Would a subscription mean I'd have to add up the cost of N months of heated seats to get the current 'list price'?

No. Subscriptions like BMW's aren't equipment attached to the car so
don't affect the price of the car for tax purposes. And there's an
exemption for a benefit connected with a taxable car (so people don't
end up taxed twice for things like insurance). So I think they escape
tax altogether (like e.g. personalised number plates on a company car).


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 19/07/2022 21:46, Tim+ wrote:

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 19/07/2022 18:12, Tim+ wrote:

RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

Saw that. Tesla have being doing it for a while for some advanced features >>> but not for a f*cking resistive element that’s already built in!

I think BMW will either lose customers or quietly lose the subscription
idea for anything so basic.

Tim

In a EV is probably better to heat the driver and passenger via heated
seat/steering wheel rather than the whole cabin so they are probably
banking on 100% take-up.

True, but who’s gonna buy a car from a company that holds basic features to ransom? Besides, the electric BMWs are hideous. ;-)

There are plenty of makers who won’t screw you for heated seats.

Tim

This was discussed on R5 Wake Up to Money recently. It was stated that
it is easier to manufacture a car with a lot of options already
fitted but to enable them via software if the customer chooses the
option, rather than have complicated build schedules with knock-on
impacts on Just-in-time manufacturing.

I guess the question is what happens when the 2nd owner buys the car

I have a suspicion that all the major manufacturers will go down this
route.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In message <tc197v$183v$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andrew <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> writes

On 19/07/2022 21:46, Tim+ wrote:

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 19/07/2022 18:12, Tim+ wrote:

RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

Seen in a US newsgroup:

BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208

Saw that. Tesla have being doing it for a while for some advanced features
but not for a f*cking resistive element that’s already built in!

I think BMW will either lose customers or quietly lose the subscription >>>> idea for anything so basic.

Tim

In a EV is probably better to heat the driver and passenger via heated
seat/steering wheel rather than the whole cabin so they are probably
banking on 100% take-up.

True, but who’s gonna buy a car from a company that holds basic >>features to
ransom? Besides, the electric BMWs are hideous. ;-)
There are plenty of makers who won’t screw you for heated seats.
Tim

This was discussed on R5 Wake Up to Money recently. It was stated that
it is easier to manufacture a car with a lot of options already
fitted but to enable them via software if the customer chooses the
option, rather than have complicated build schedules with knock-on
impacts on Just-in-time manufacturing.

I guess the question is what happens when the 2nd owner buys the car

I have a suspicion that all the major manufacturers will go down this
route.

This sort of thing isn't new. Some 20 years ago, a piece of electronic
test equipment I needed to use lacked certain vital optional extras. At
the time, adding such things would typically have meant fitting
additional plug-in cards or modules. As it turned out, all that was
required was a phone call to the supplier who, for an appropriate
payment, supplied a secret code that could be downloaded into the
machine via an RS232 link.
--
Ian

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