I notice that, as ever, there is electronic advertising all around the
pitch. However we only seem to see adverts in English for what I
perceive to be UK products. I can't see that advertisers would want English/British advertising on say polish or Hungarian TV?

Does this mean that some sort of overlay is being used? I have seen (by watching carefully) that at party conferences there are text screens
around the back of the auditorium which are always black/blank when in
the shot of a TV camera. Just occasionally a camera catches the screen
from an unexpected angle and it is covered in large text. Is this the
modern equivalent of a teleprompter and thus the same process that is
being pitch-side advertising?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 19/06/2024 19:31, Tweed wrote:

Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I notice that, as ever, there is electronic advertising all around the
pitch. However we only seem to see adverts in English for what I
perceive to be UK products. I can't see that advertisers would want
English/British advertising on say polish or Hungarian TV?

Does this mean that some sort of overlay is being used? I have seen (by
watching carefully) that at party conferences there are text screens
around the back of the auditorium which are always black/blank when in
the shot of a TV camera. Just occasionally a camera catches the screen
from an unexpected angle and it is covered in large text. Is this the
modern equivalent of a teleprompter and thus the same process that is
being pitch-side advertising?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_advertising

Advertising is a scourge of modern life. At least there isn't the
technology yet to beam the adverts directly into people's brains,
without people being able to choose to ignore the adverts by looking
away or closing their eyes.

I am reminded of a US TV executive, many years ago, who was quoted as
saying that it was the duty of every good American to watch and take
note of each and every advert that they saw on his channel, and to take loo/coffee breaks during the programmes not the advert breaks. He
sounded a right Wally, so far up his own arse that he could see out
through his teeth!

Advertising is a necessary evil which pays the bills and allows free broadcasting, but it is still an unwanted intrusion. I can't stop people advertising at me, but I'll do my utmost to ignore it.

Most adverts just strengthen my resolve not to buy the product being
advertised because I resent the intrusion of the advert. The more
irritating the advert (the guy in the tight shorts who twerks in an
advert for something, or that bloody "daddy or chips" advert) the more I
am likely not to buy. I find that I remember the *type* of product being advertised far more than the specific brand, so I am just as likely to
buy the competitor's product as the one in the advert - which I'm sure
isn't what they want ;-)


Having said that...

The technology for virtual adverts is intriguing, because it has to keep
the image of the advert stationary with respect to the sports ground, as
if it was really there and the camera was panning across it. That needs
serious computational power to copy with motion compensation and
parallax without any juddering and glitches. I presume it relies on each
camera being in a very well-known fixed position (even if it can pan,
tilt and zoom), and won't work with mobile cameras on Steadicams.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 19/06/2024 23:12, NY wrote:

I am reminded of a US TV executive, many years ago, who was quoted as
saying that it was the duty of every good American to watch and take
note of each and every advert that they saw on his channel, and to take loo/coffee breaks during the programmes not the advert breaks. He
sounded a right Wally, so far up his own arse that he could see out
through his teeth!

I remember reading that some years ago, quite a few (mainly Americans)
agreed that they should watch adverts and also not use Ad Blockers online.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 19/06/2024 23:12, NY wrote:

The more irritating the advert (the guy in the tight shorts who twerks
in an advert for something, or that bloody "daddy or chips" advert) the
more I am likely not to buy.

Similarly I avoid products whose adverts seem to be only aimed at the homosexual 'community' and of course those where every character is black.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 20 Jun 2024 07:09:43 +0100, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

On 19/06/2024 23:12, NY wrote:

I am reminded of a US TV executive, many years ago, who was quoted as
saying that it was the duty of every good American to watch and take
note of each and every advert that they saw on his channel, and to take
loo/coffee breaks during the programmes not the advert breaks. He
sounded a right Wally, so far up his own arse that he could see out
through his teeth!

I remember reading that some years ago, quite a few (mainly Americans)
agreed that they should watch adverts and also not use Ad Blockers online.

I feel a moral duty to watch a proportion of the adverts as it is the advertisers that are paying for the programmes. Similarly, I feel a
moral duty to buy Andrex so as to keep the puppies in employment :-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In message <sxmdnbbsmo5dyu77nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> at Wed,
19 Jun 2024 23:12:16, NY <me@privacy.net> writes

On 19/06/2024 19:31, Tweed wrote:

Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I notice that, as ever, there is electronic advertising all around the
pitch. However we only seem to see adverts in English for what I
perceive to be UK products. I can't see that advertisers would want
English/British advertising on say polish or Hungarian TV?

[]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_advertising

Interesting. I've so far managed to avoid any of the matches (I'm not
really interested in football). Though I wonder how far the tendrils
extend: when short clips of a game are shown on the news (you can't
escape football altogether!), do those include the patched advert.s,
blanks, or the wrong ones? (I'm guessing the patched, because the news selectors will have grabbed from their own feed.)

Advertising is a scourge of modern life. At least there isn't the
technology yet to beam the adverts directly into people's brains,
without people being able to choose to ignore the adverts by looking
away or closing their eyes.

[My personal bugbear is gambling ad.s; at one time I hoped they'd
eventually go the way of smoking ad.s, i. e. get banned, but obviously
society has changed since the smoking ad.s ban and that's not going to
happen )-:.]

I am reminded of a US TV executive, many years ago, who was quoted as
saying that it was the duty of every good American to watch and take
note of each and every advert that they saw on his channel, and to take

As another has posted, the same argument has been used against
ad-blockers online. (I find a good hosts file works pretty well - I
don't have an ad-blocker, but don't often see ad.s. Except on YouTube,
where I find them annoying but accept them as they presumably fund my
access to it.)

loo/coffee breaks during the programmes not the advert breaks. He

I hadn't heard it being suggested as going that far though!
[]

Advertising is a necessary evil which pays the bills and allows free >broadcasting, but it is still an unwanted intrusion. I can't stop
people advertising at me, but I'll do my utmost to ignore it.

Ditto, and to block/avoid it. Advertisers must hate the "toggle" button
on FreeView remote controls, that allows you to toggle between two
channels: when the ad.s come on, I usually toggle to another channel
showing something I don't mind just seeing off snatches of. Though of
course if they're both from the same company, they tend to synchronise
their ad. breaks.

Most adverts just strengthen my resolve not to buy the product being >advertised because I resent the intrusion of the advert. The more

I like to _think_ that's my resolve too, though suspect it's not
_entirely_ effective.

I sometimes enjoy the occasional ad. - some (I think especially British,
but as I don't see others I don't know why I think that) are extremely
clever and/or amusing. (I think the pinnacle were those for Red Rock
Cider, starring Leslie Nielsen. Which bear multiple watching.) Though I
have the feeling that the proportion of such good ones is lower than it
once was, but that could just be age cynicism.

irritating the advert (the guy in the tight shorts who twerks in an
advert for something, or that bloody "daddy or chips" advert) the more
I am likely not to buy. I find that I remember the *type* of product
being advertised far more than the specific brand, so I am just as
likely to buy the competitor's product as the one in the advert - which
I'm sure isn't what they want ;-)

But it may have drawn your existence to a _type_ of product you
previously didn't know about, or at least consider buying. (And made you _aware_ that that manufacturer made that type of product.)

Having said that...

The technology for virtual adverts is intriguing, because it has to
keep the image of the advert stationary with respect to the sports
ground, as if it was really there and the camera was panning across it.

Yes, I appreciate the technological ingenuity involved.

That needs serious computational power to copy with motion compensation
and parallax without any juddering and glitches. I presume it relies on
each camera being in a very well-known fixed position (even if it can
pan, tilt and zoom), and won't work with mobile cameras on Steadicams.

Presumably those cameras that whizz around on wires above the ground,
like a demonic pen plotter (commoner, I think, on American Football and baseball coverage than European sports) _do_ know exactly where they
are.

The known fixed camera positions - I'm reminded of the appearance (I
think it's less evident now) of actual physical markings on the pitch
that were distorted to appear rectangular from one particular camera;
you occasionally saw them from another angle where their distortedness
was obvious. (I think commoner in cricket than anything else.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If mankind minus one were of one opinion, then mankind is no more justified in silencing the one than the one - if he had the power - would be justified in silencing mankind. -John Stuart Mill, philosopher and economist (1806-1873)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Andy Burns wrote:

I noticed some Japanese on them during the England match

Hisense, so chinese.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Woody wrote:

I notice that, as ever, there is electronic advertising all around the
pitch. However we only seem to see adverts in English for what I
perceive to be UK products. I can't see that advertisers would want English/British advertising on say polish or Hungarian TV?

Does this mean that some sort of overlay is being used?

I noticed some Japanese on them during the England match, and plenty of
moire fringing when the camera was highly zoomed-in on the advertising.

Maybe today's match is in a smaller stadium less well equipped?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu 20/06/2024 18:01, Andy Burns wrote:

Woody wrote:

I notice that, as ever, there is electronic advertising all around the
pitch. However we only seem to see adverts in English for what I
perceive to be UK products. I can't see that advertisers would want
English/British advertising on say polish or Hungarian TV?

Does this mean that some sort of overlay is being used?

I noticed some Japanese on them during the England match, and plenty of
moire fringing when the camera was highly zoomed-in on the advertising.

Maybe today's match is in a smaller stadium less well equipped?

The one thing that really made me ask is spelling. For instance we spell
and the screen shows Cologne, but most of Europe and the Germans
themselves spell it Kôln.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 20/06/2024 22:48, Woody wrote:

The one thing that really made me ask is spelling. For instance we spell
and the screen shows Cologne, but most of Europe and the Germans
themselves spell it Kôln.

Lots of place names are spelt / pronounced differently in different
languages.

Do you plan to get the French to stop calling London, 'Londres'

Only a matter of time before Bradford is written as برادفورد

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri 21/06/2024 06:46, JMB99 wrote:

On 20/06/2024 22:48, Woody wrote:

The one thing that really made me ask is spelling. For instance we
spell and the screen shows Cologne, but most of Europe and the Germans
themselves spell it Kôln.

Lots of place names are spelt / pronounced differently in different languages.

Do you plan to get the French to stop calling London, 'Londres'

Only a matter of time before Bradford is written as برادفورد

No you've missed the point. I suspected that there was/is some sort of
overlay system in use because of the different spellings. If those
hoardings in Germany were real and on site then the would spell the city
name in the German style of Köln which is in practice used across most
of Europe. The fact that when we see it spelt in the English style of
Cologne raises the question of why, and some sort of overlay must be the
only answer.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Woody wrote:

I suspected that there was/is some sort of overlay system in use because
of the different spellings. If those hoardings in Germany were real and
on site then the would spell the city name in the German style of Köln
which is in practice used across most of Europe. The fact that when we
see it spelt in the English style of Cologne raises the question of why,

I watched the Spain/Italy match "for science".

An almost identical set of advertisers (I was hoping for Eni's
six-legged dog, or Santander), the slogans were still in English (the
Hisense was in English, not Chinese like the England vs whoever match).

and some sort of overlay must be the only answer.

Is chromakeying *that* good nowadays? There were no fuzzy outlines
round players' hair, or through the goal nets, and given the number of
colours on the various clothing, nobody had any transparent areas in
front of the hoardings.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 21/06/2024 09:24, Andy Burns wrote:

Woody wrote:

I suspected that there was/is some sort of overlay system in use
because of the different spellings. If those hoardings in Germany were
real and on site then the would spell the city name in the German
style of Köln which is in practice used across most of Europe. The
fact that when we see it spelt in the English style of Cologne raises
the question of why,

I watched the Spain/Italy match "for science".

An almost identical set of advertisers (I was hoping for Eni's
six-legged dog, or Santander), the slogans were still in English (the
Hisense was in English, not Chinese like the England vs whoever match).

and some sort of overlay must be the only answer.

Is chromakeying *that* good nowadays?  There were no fuzzy outlines
round players' hair, or through the goal nets, and given the number of colours on the various clothing, nobody had any transparent areas in
front of the hoardings.

There is no overlaying etc in use for Euro 2024

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wed, 19 Jun 2024 23:12:16 +0100, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

I am reminded of a US TV executive, many years ago, who was quoted as
saying that it was the duty of every good American to watch and take
note of each and every advert that they saw on his channel, and to take >loo/coffee breaks during the programmes not the advert breaks. He
sounded a right Wally, so far up his own arse that he could see out
through his teeth!

I sometimes manage to catch a glimpse of a programme in between the
adverts.


--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In message <ldksmlF9bkdU1@mid.individual.net> at Fri, 21 Jun 2024
09:41:53, Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> writes

On 21/06/2024 09:24, Andy Burns wrote:

Woody wrote:

I suspected that there was/is some sort of overlay system in use
because of the different spellings. If those hoardings in Germany
were real and on site then the would spell the city name in the
German style of K�ln which is in practice used across most of
Europe. The fact that when we see it spelt in the English style of >>>Cologne raises the question of why,

I watched the Spain/Italy match "for science".
An almost identical set of advertisers (I was hoping for Eni's
six-legged dog, or Santander), the slogans were still in English (the >>Hisense was in English, not Chinese like the England vs whoever match).

and some sort of overlay must be the only answer.

Is chromakeying *that* good nowadays?� There were no fuzzy outlines
round players' hair, or through the goal nets, and given the number of >>colours on the various clothing, nobody had any transparent areas in
front of the hoardings.

There is no overlaying etc in use for Euro 2024

In that case, how _is_ the regionalisation being done (for example,
Woody seeing Cologne rather than K�ln)?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I admire you British: when things get tough, you reach for humour. Not firearms. - Sigourney (Susan) Weaver, RT 2017/11/4-10

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 21/06/2024 16:40, Andy Burns wrote:

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

Mark Carver writes

There is no overlaying etc in use for Euro 2024

In that case, how _is_ the regionalisation being done (for example,
Woody seeing Cologne rather than Köln)?

Who says everybody isn't seeing 'Cologne'?

Well, the non 'electronic' signage in the stadium is a mixture of
'Cologne' and 'Köln'

<https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/editorial-images/sport/event/cologne-stadium-stadium-open-media-day-uefa-euro-2024/776156838?editorialproducts=all>

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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J. P. Gilliver wrote:

Mark Carver writes

There is no overlaying etc in use for Euro 2024

In that case, how _is_ the regionalisation being done (for example,
Woody seeing Cologne rather than Köln)?

Who says everybody isn't seeing 'Cologne'?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 21 Jun 2024 16:40:26 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

Mark Carver writes

There is no overlaying etc in use for Euro 2024

In that case, how _is_ the regionalisation being done (for example,
Woody seeing Cologne rather than Köln)?

Who says everybody isn't seeing 'Cologne'?

Bomber Harris.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In article <v538pp$324f0$1@dont-email.me>,
Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

On Fri 21/06/2024 06:46, JMB99 wrote:

On 20/06/2024 22:48, Woody wrote:

The one thing that really made me ask is spelling. For instance we
spell and the screen shows Cologne, but most of Europe and the Germans
themselves spell it K�ln.

Lots of place names are spelt / pronounced differently in different languages.

Do you plan to get the French to stop calling London, 'Londres'

Only a matter of time before Bradford is written as ########

No you've missed the point. I suspected that there was/is some sort of overlay system in use because of the different spellings. If those
hoardings in Germany were real and on site then the would spell the city
name in the German style of K�ln which is in practice used across most
of Europe. The fact that when we see it spelt in the English style of
Cologne raises the question of why, and some sort of overlay must be the
only answer.

It is possible that the adverts were placed by a company who wanted to
attract the British viewers who were watching on TV.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4t�
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 23/06/2024 08:37, charles wrote:

In article <v538pp$324f0$1@dont-email.me>,
Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

No you've missed the point. I suspected that there was/is some sort of
overlay system in use because of the different spellings. If those
hoardings in Germany were real and on site then the would spell the city
name in the German style of K�ln which is in practice used across most
of Europe. The fact that when we see it spelt in the English style of
Cologne raises the question of why, and some sort of overlay must be the
only answer.

It is possible that the adverts were placed by a company who wanted to attract the British viewers who were watching on TV.

There is an easy way to find out what is happening. Someone needs to buy
a ticket and take pictures inside the ground. ;-)

Have we got any members in Germany?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sun 23/06/2024 10:17, John Williamson wrote:

On 23/06/2024 08:37, charles wrote:

In article <v538pp$324f0$1@dont-email.me>,
   Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

No you've missed the point. I suspected that there was/is some sort of
overlay system in use because of the different spellings. If those
hoardings in Germany were real and on site then the would spell the city >>> name in the German style of Köln which is in practice used across most
of Europe. The fact that when we see it spelt in the English style of
Cologne raises the question of why, and some sort of overlay must be the >>> only answer.

It is possible that the adverts were placed by a company who wanted to
attract the British viewers who were watching on TV.

There is an easy way to find out what is happening. Someone needs to buy
a ticket and take pictures inside the ground. ;-)

Have we got any members in Germany?

Can maybe help with that. My daughter has just arrived in Copenhagen
this morning on a short business trip. I'll as her to look at Danish TV
for what they see of the placards.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 23/06/2024 10:17, John Williamson wrote:

On 23/06/2024 08:37, charles wrote:

In article <v538pp$324f0$1@dont-email.me>,
   Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

No you've missed the point. I suspected that there was/is some sort of
overlay system in use because of the different spellings. If those
hoardings in Germany were real and on site then the would spell the city >>> name in the German style of Köln which is in practice used across most
of Europe. The fact that when we see it spelt in the English style of
Cologne raises the question of why, and some sort of overlay must be the >>> only answer.

It is possible that the adverts were placed by a company who wanted to
attract the British viewers who were watching on TV.

There is an easy way to find out what is happening. Someone needs to buy
a ticket and take pictures inside the ground. ;-)

What was it that was unclear about my post of June 21st 09:41hrs ?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 23/06/2024 15:17, Mark Carver wrote:

On 23/06/2024 10:17, John Williamson wrote:

There is an easy way to find out what is happening. Someone needs to
buy a ticket and take pictures inside the ground. ;-)

What was it that was unclear about my post of June 21st 09:41hrs ?

You did not mention why you seem to be the only person here sure of what
you said to be the case.

Many on usenet state things with no evidence or explanation.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 23/06/2024 16:39, John Williamson wrote:

On 23/06/2024 15:17, Mark Carver wrote:

On 23/06/2024 10:17, John Williamson wrote:

There is an easy way to find out what is happening. Someone needs to
buy a ticket and take pictures inside the ground. ;-)

What was it that was unclear about my post of June 21st 09:41hrs ?

You did not mention why you seem to be the only person here sure of what
you said to be the case.

Many on usenet state things with no evidence or explanation.

The pictures you later linked to show only dark panels where the
animated adverts were shown on screen.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 23/06/2024 16:39, John Williamson wrote:

On 23/06/2024 15:17, Mark Carver wrote:

On 23/06/2024 10:17, John Williamson wrote:

There is an easy way to find out what is happening. Someone needs to
buy a ticket and take pictures inside the ground. ;-)

What was it that was unclear about my post of June 21st 09:41hrs ?

You did not mention why you seem to be the only person here sure of what
you said to be the case.

Many on usenet state things with no evidence or explanation.

I've only been a member of this group for 25 years.

I have colleagues working out there, on the TV coverage, and they tell
me no overlay or similar system is in use, it's just the screens as you
see them.

I'm beginning to think I'm the only person left in this group, who
actually still works in broadcasting.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 23/06/2024 17:03, Mark Carver wrote:

On 23/06/2024 16:39, John Williamson wrote:

Many on usenet state things with no evidence or explanation.

I've only been a member of this group for 25 years.

That's as may be, but I (And,I suspect, many others) don't have the time
or inclination to check the full biography and posting history of every
poster.

I have colleagues working out there, on the TV coverage, and they tell
me no overlay or similar system is in use, it's just the screens as you
see them.

Fair enough, but the pictures you linked to showed dark panels where the
game coverage shows bright, animated panels. The (cloth?) signage round
the stadiuim is, as you said,a mix of Colgne and Köln.

I'm beginning to think I'm the only person left in this group, who
actually still works in broadcasting.

Quite possibly. Usenet and most other social media is the habitat of
those with plenty of spare time and silver hair. ;-)


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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John Williamson wrote:

Fair enough, but the pictures you linked to showed dark panels where the
game coverage shows bright, animated panels.

The screens are LED matrix, but aren't powered on 24x7 ...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 23/06/2024 18:05, John Williamson wrote:

On 23/06/2024 17:03, Mark Carver wrote:

On 23/06/2024 16:39, John Williamson wrote:

Many on usenet state things with no evidence or explanation.

I've only been a member of this group for 25 years.

That's as may be, but I (And,I suspect, many others) don't have the time
or inclination to check the full biography and posting history of every poster.

I have colleagues working out there, on the TV coverage, and they tell
me no overlay or similar system is in use, it's just the screens as you
see them.

Fair enough, but the pictures you linked to showed dark panels where the
game coverage shows bright, animated panels. The (cloth?) signage round
the stadiuim is, as you said,a mix of Colgne and Köln.

As Andy B says. The screens are only switched on for the matches,
I remember the (then) new Arsenal stadium 20 years ago, they had LED
screens installed. All worked fine, but when the stadium hosted
Champions League matches, the C.L management company insisted on
covering them over, and using 'conventional;' board advertising.
Nuts.

I'm beginning to think I'm the only person left in this group, who
actually still works in broadcasting.

Quite possibly. Usenet and most other social media is the habitat of
those with plenty of spare time and silver hair. ;-)

I'm semi retired now, and with silver hair :-(

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In article <ldr39dF6ke8U2@mid.individual.net>, Andy Burns
<usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

John Williamson wrote:

Fair enough, but the pictures you linked to showed dark panels where
the game coverage shows bright, animated panels.

The screens are LED matrix, but aren't powered on 24x7 ...

when I was demonstrating Ceefax at Montreaux in the early '70s, somebody
wanted to take a photo of the screen, He held his light meter near the
screen said "It's a bit dark, I'd better use flash."

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4t�
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

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On 23/06/2024 17:14, Tweed wrote:

Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:

On 23/06/2024 16:39, John Williamson wrote:

On 23/06/2024 15:17, Mark Carver wrote:

On 23/06/2024 10:17, John Williamson wrote:

There is an easy way to find out what is happening. Someone needs to >>>>> buy a ticket and take pictures inside the ground. ;-)

What was it that was unclear about my post of June 21st 09:41hrs ?

You did not mention why you seem to be the only person here sure of what >>> you said to be the case.

Many on usenet state things with no evidence or explanation.

I've only been a member of this group for 25 years.

I have colleagues working out there, on the TV coverage, and they tell
me no overlay or similar system is in use, it's just the screens as you
see them.

I'm beginning to think I'm the only person left in this group, who
actually still works in broadcasting.

Are overlay systems in use anywhere, or are they in the fevered
imaginations of the marketing department?

It was attempted about 10 years ago I recall, on a European match. It
looked awful, and fake.

It's the sort of thing you might just get away with on recorded footage,
using multipass CGI style processing, but 'on the fly' live use, I'm not
aware anyone has tried it again.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In article <ldqvb6F4tjvU2@mid.individual.net>,
Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:

On 23/06/2024 16:39, John Williamson wrote:

On 23/06/2024 15:17, Mark Carver wrote:

On 23/06/2024 10:17, John Williamson wrote:

There is an easy way to find out what is happening. Someone needs to
buy a ticket and take pictures inside the ground. ;-)

What was it that was unclear about my post of June 21st 09:41hrs ?

You did not mention why you seem to be the only person here sure of what you said to be the case.

Many on usenet state things with no evidence or explanation.

I've only been a member of this group for 25 years.

I have colleagues working out there, on the TV coverage, and they tell
me no overlay or similar system is in use, it's just the screens as you
see them.

I'm beginning to think I'm the only person left in this group, who
actually still works in broadcasting.

I retired from that role in 1996!

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4t�
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 23/06/2024 20:01, Tweed wrote:

Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:

On 23/06/2024 17:14, Tweed wrote:

Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:

On 23/06/2024 16:39, John Williamson wrote:

On 23/06/2024 15:17, Mark Carver wrote:

On 23/06/2024 10:17, John Williamson wrote:

There is an easy way to find out what is happening. Someone needs to >>>>>>> buy a ticket and take pictures inside the ground. ;-)

What was it that was unclear about my post of June 21st 09:41hrs ?

You did not mention why you seem to be the only person here sure of what >>>>> you said to be the case.

Many on usenet state things with no evidence or explanation.

I've only been a member of this group for 25 years.

I have colleagues working out there, on the TV coverage, and they tell >>>> me no overlay or similar system is in use, it's just the screens as you >>>> see them.

I'm beginning to think I'm the only person left in this group, who
actually still works in broadcasting.

Are overlay systems in use anywhere, or are they in the fevered
imaginations of the marketing department?

It was attempted about 10 years ago I recall, on a European match. It
looked awful, and fake.

It's the sort of thing you might just get away with on recorded footage,
using multipass CGI style processing, but 'on the fly' live use, I'm not
aware anyone has tried it again.

It did sound all a bit unlikely, but who am I to ask? If you told me it’s possible to get multiple HF carriers up a telephone wire to deliver multi megabit broadband I’d be telling you that would be impossible.

Well, indeed. 40 years ago, I simply marvelled at how VTR dynamic
tracking worked, basically video heads mounted on little piezo crystals
that would bend to follow the helical tracks at non standard playback
speeds, while the whole thing whizzed round on the head drum. (Although
the Time Base Corrector would work very hard to mop up the mess)

All that said, I think the Grundig V2000 domestic system had DT ?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <ldso4tFeudcU1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark@invalid.com> scribeth thus

On 23/06/2024 20:01, Tweed wrote:

Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:

On 23/06/2024 17:14, Tweed wrote:

Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:

On 23/06/2024 16:39, John Williamson wrote:

On 23/06/2024 15:17, Mark Carver wrote:

On 23/06/2024 10:17, John Williamson wrote:

There is an easy way to find out what is happening. Someone needs to >>>>>>>> buy a ticket and take pictures inside the ground. ;-)

What was it that was unclear about my post of June 21st 09:41hrs ? >>>>>>

You did not mention why you seem to be the only person here sure of what >>>>>> you said to be the case.

Many on usenet state things with no evidence or explanation.

I've only been a member of this group for 25 years.

I have colleagues working out there, on the TV coverage, and they tell >>>>> me no overlay or similar system is in use, it's just the screens as you >>>>> see them.

I'm beginning to think I'm the only person left in this group, who
actually still works in broadcasting.

Are overlay systems in use anywhere, or are they in the fevered
imaginations of the marketing department?

It was attempted about 10 years ago I recall, on a European match. It
looked awful, and fake.

It's the sort of thing you might just get away with on recorded footage, >>> using multipass CGI style processing, but 'on the fly' live use, I'm not >>> aware anyone has tried it again.

It did sound all a bit unlikely, but who am I to ask? If you told me it’s >> possible to get multiple HF carriers up a telephone wire to deliver multi
megabit broadband I’d be telling you that would be impossible.

Well, indeed. 40 years ago, I simply marvelled at how VTR dynamic
tracking worked, basically video heads mounted on little piezo crystals
that would bend to follow the helical tracks at non standard playback
speeds, while the whole thing whizzed round on the head drum. (Although
the Time Base Corrector would work very hard to mop up the mess)

All that said, I think the Grundig V2000 domestic system had DT ?

Yes it did, worked well. Had one for years..

Still involved in broadcast - Mark you are not alone;!)..

--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <ldso4tFeudcU1@mid.individual.net> at Mon, 24 Jun 2024
09:13:16, Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> writes
[]

Well, indeed. 40 years ago, I simply marvelled at how VTR dynamic
tracking worked, basically video heads mounted on little piezo crystals
that would bend to follow the helical tracks at non standard playback
speeds, while the whole thing whizzed round on the head drum. (Although
the Time Base Corrector would work very hard to mop up the mess)

All that said, I think the Grundig V2000 domestic system had DT ?

Yes, the Philips/Grundig V2000 had that system; best of the three by
far, IMO - just sadly lost.

I'm not sure if it was _introduced_ to aid playback at other than normal
speed (though it most certainly did: on one of mine, if you switched
from 9 times forward speed to 7 times reverse or vice versa, it did so, gradually and passing through still frame, with no noise bars or even
loss of colour!); I _think_ it was introduced to make it possible to
work with half the tape width/area. (I think the _linear_ tape speed was similar to the other two systems, so as it only used half the width -
you could turn the cassettes over, like an audio cassette - it had much
finer tracks. (And they even made a LP version [which to my eyes wasn't
much inferior in picture quality]!)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I love the way Microsoft follows standards. In much the same manner that fish follow migrating caribou. - Paul Tomblin, cited by "The Real Bev", 2017-2-18.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In article <qpZpUtRkOTemFwlg@bancom.co.uk>, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:

In article <ldso4tFeudcU1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark@invalid.com> scribeth thus

On 23/06/2024 20:01, Tweed wrote:

Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:

On 23/06/2024 17:14, Tweed wrote:

Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:

On 23/06/2024 16:39, John Williamson wrote:

On 23/06/2024 15:17, Mark Carver wrote:

On 23/06/2024 10:17, John Williamson wrote:

There is an easy way to find out what is happening. Someone
needs to buy a ticket and take pictures inside the ground. ;-) >>>>>>>>

What was it that was unclear about my post of June 21st 09:41hrs ? >>>>>>

You did not mention why you seem to be the only person here sure >>>>>> of what you said to be the case.

Many on usenet state things with no evidence or explanation.

I've only been a member of this group for 25 years.

I have colleagues working out there, on the TV coverage, and they
tell me no overlay or similar system is in use, it's just the
screens as you see them.

I'm beginning to think I'm the only person left in this group, who >>>>> actually still works in broadcasting.

Are overlay systems in use anywhere, or are they in the fevered
imaginations of the marketing department?

It was attempted about 10 years ago I recall, on a European match. It
looked awful, and fake.

It's the sort of thing you might just get away with on recorded
footage, using multipass CGI style processing, but 'on the fly' live
use, I'm not aware anyone has tried it again.

It did sound all a bit unlikely, but who am I to ask? If you told me
it�s possible to get multiple HF carriers up a telephone wire to
deliver multi megabit broadband I�d be telling you that would be
impossible.

Well, indeed. 40 years ago, I simply marvelled at how VTR dynamic
tracking worked, basically video heads mounted on little piezo crystals >that would bend to follow the helical tracks at non standard playback >speeds, while the whole thing whizzed round on the head drum. (Although
the Time Base Corrector would work very hard to mop up the mess)

All that said, I think the Grundig V2000 domestic system had DT ?

Yes it did, worked well. Had one for years..

+1

--

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4t�
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 24/06/2024 09:56, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

In message <ldso4tFeudcU1@mid.individual.net> at Mon, 24 Jun 2024
09:13:16, Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> writes
[]

Well, indeed. 40 years ago, I simply marvelled at how VTR dynamic
tracking worked, basically video heads mounted on little piezo
crystals that would bend to follow the helical tracks at non standard
playback speeds, while the whole thing whizzed round on the head drum.
(Although the Time Base Corrector would work very hard to mop up the
mess)

All that said, I think the Grundig V2000 domestic system had DT ?

Yes, the Philips/Grundig V2000 had that system; best of the three by
far, IMO - just sadly lost.

I'm not sure if it was _introduced_ to aid playback at other than normal speed (though it most certainly did: on one of mine, if you switched
from 9 times forward speed to 7 times reverse or vice versa, it did so, gradually and passing through still frame, with no noise bars or even
loss of colour!); I _think_ it was introduced to make it possible to
work with half the tape width/area. (I think the _linear_ tape speed was similar to the other two systems, so as it only used half the width -
you could turn the cassettes over, like an audio cassette - it had much
finer tracks. (And they even made a LP version [which to my eyes wasn't
much inferior in picture quality]!)

When the forward speed of the tape contributes to the resulting angle of
the video tracks, in combination with the physical tilt of the drum
axis, you need a way to keep the heads following the track when the tape
is running at a different speed.

The obvious way would be to alter the drum axis which would need immense
servo power. The fact that they can achieve a similar effect by moving
the heads from side to side piezoelectrically as they move along the
track is PFM. Immense kudos to the engineers who designed it and made it resilient enough for use in a domestic environment.

I've never actually seen the picture quality on Betamax or V2000, to
compare it with VHS, because I didn't know anyone who had one of those
VCRs. But I've heard it said that it said that Betamax was generally
better but suffered because it didn't manage to get in first to be the definitive format for pre-recorded rental tapes.

As regards VHS, I always wondered why of the three tape speeds SP, LP
(half SP speed) and EP (one-third SP speed), it was LP which gave the
worst picture quality and rarely if ever managed still frame in colour.
I'd have expected picture quality and loss of colour on still frame to
get progressively worse as tape speed was reduced.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In message <wUGdnbY_tKEl6-T7nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> at Mon,
24 Jun 2024 14:38:00, NY <me@privacy.net> writes

On 24/06/2024 09:56, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

[]

Yes, the Philips/Grundig V2000 had that system; best of the three by
far, IMO - just sadly lost.
I'm not sure if it was _introduced_ to aid playback at other than
normal speed (though it most certainly did: on one of mine, if you >>switched from 9 times forward speed to 7 times reverse or vice versa,
it did so, gradually and passing through still frame, with no noise
bars or even loss of colour!); I _think_ it was introduced to make it >>possible to work with half the tape width/area. (I think the _linear_
tape speed was similar to the other two systems, so as it only used
half the width - you could turn the cassettes over, like an audio
cassette - it had much finer tracks. (And they even made a LP version >>[which to my eyes wasn't much inferior in picture quality]!)

When the forward speed of the tape contributes to the resulting angle
of the video tracks, in combination with the physical tilt of the drum
axis, you need a way to keep the heads following the track when the
tape is running at a different speed.

The obvious way would be to alter the drum axis which would need
immense servo power. The fact that they can achieve a similar effect by >moving the heads from side to side piezoelectrically as they move along
the track is PFM. Immense kudos to the engineers who designed it and
made it resilient enough for use in a domestic environment.

I'd never thought of tilting the whole drum! (Along with its drive
motor, presumably, unless you could do it with a belt.)

I've never actually seen the picture quality on Betamax or V2000, to
compare it with VHS, because I didn't know anyone who had one of those
VCRs. But I've heard it said that it said that Betamax was generally
better but suffered because it didn't manage to get in first to be the >definitive format for pre-recorded rental tapes.

I remember reading somewhere that V2000 and Betamax had 3 MHz bandwidth,
VHS 2.5. I don't remember ever seeing a beta system; to be honest I
don't _really_ remember VHS being worse after I switched to it (though
that may have been my V2000 kit was ageing compared to new VHS kit),
apart from the definite inferiority at other than normal play forward
speed. The various reasons for which system won - or lost - are complex (there's at least one good video that touches on the subject on YouTube
- I think by TechMoan). The usual one _quoted_ is the rental one, but
initially - and when the format wars were at their height - most people
used their VCRs for time-shifting (or occasionally keeping a prog. they
liked enough), rather than renting, and the rental market followed the
winner, though obviously there would be some positive feedback there.

As regards VHS, I always wondered why of the three tape speeds SP, LP
(half SP speed) and EP (one-third SP speed), it was LP which gave the
worst picture quality and rarely if ever managed still frame in colour.
I'd have expected picture quality and loss of colour on still frame to
get progressively worse as tape speed was reduced.

I don't know what changes were made to get the three speeds (was EP
common this side of the pond?), but remember that for all of them, the head-to-tape speed was much the same: the main degradation would have
been increased pickup from adjacent tracks. Maybe EP needed more of a
change - different subcarrier frequencies perhaps? - to make it work at
all (LP managing to work with much the same as SP, just taking advantage
of improved manufacturing tolerances that had come with experience?),
and thus looked better in some ways. I'm pretty certain I never saw EP.

Did VHS get piezo head-mounting towards the end? (It'd have had to work
purely on signal _strength_, to retain backwards compatibility: in
V2000, there were added carriers, the difference between which was
detected and used for that control, but presumably original VHS didn't
have those.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Veni, Vidi, Vera (I came, I saw, we'll meet again) - Mik from S+AS Limited (mik@saslimited.demon.co.uk), 1998

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 24/06/2024 17:48, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

As regards VHS, I always wondered why of the three tape speeds SP, LP
(half SP speed) and EP (one-third SP speed), it was LP which gave the
worst picture quality and rarely if ever managed still frame in
colour. I'd have expected picture quality and loss of colour on still
frame to get progressively worse as tape speed was reduced.

I don't know what changes were made to get the three speeds (was EP
common this side of the pond?), but remember that for all of them, the head-to-tape speed was much the same: the main degradation would have
been increased pickup from adjacent tracks. Maybe EP needed more of a
change - different subcarrier frequencies perhaps? - to make it work at
all (LP managing to work with much the same as SP, just taking advantage
of improved manufacturing tolerances that had come with experience?),
and thus looked better in some ways. I'm pretty certain I never saw EP.

My last two (*) VCRs were Panasonics that I bought in the late 90s and
the early 2000s. They had various "modern" features such as hi fi sound (recorded "under" the video track), NICAM decoder, tape library. And
they had EP speed as well as SP and LP. It was useful if I was going
away on holiday to put in a 5-hour cassette and know that I could record
a *whole* 15 hours of programmes while I was away ;-)


(*) The saga of the two VCRs: The original one developed a fault which
caused it to run the tape at a speed somewhere between FF and play, for
as long as the VCR was plugged into the mains. It stopped responding to
the remote or even the front panel controls. It had had the VCR
equivalent of a stroke! So I took it to a VCR/TV repair shop - the sort
that know enough to investigate faults rather than just sending things
away or telling you to buy a new one. The guy phoned me a day or so
later and told me that the VCR was f**cked, and offered me a deal -
either he'd charge me a nominal amount and give it back to me to see if anywhere else could repair it, or else he'd keep it for spares and I'd
owe nothing. I'm glad I chose the former. So I bought a replacement.
Then a few weeks later I plugged the old VCR in and it behaved normally,
and continued to do so for several more years until I began recording TV
on a PC (Windows Media Centre) and later Raspberry Pi, with DVB
decoders. So I ended up with two working VCRs - it meant I could record
two things at the same time. Goodness knows what the fault had been -
something in the tape-transport logic circuitry, I presume.

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On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 17:03:50 +0100, Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:

I'm beginning to think I'm the only person left in this group, who
actually still works in broadcasting.

Well I still do, but not for much longer.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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