I see a report that R4 long wave may continue until at least 2025: https://keeplongwave.co.uk/2024/03/26/longwave-closure-may-be-postponed-until-at-least-2025/
This got me wondering. Is there any indication for someone listening carefully (maybe on headphones) that teleswitching is taking place?
Can it take place at any time or are there fixed times of day? Does it
take place during the time signal (pips)?
On 06/08/2024 17:22, Scott wrote:
I see a report that R4 long wave may continue until at least 2025:The teleswitching signal is phase modulated on to the 198kHz carrier,
https://keeplongwave.co.uk/2024/03/26/longwave-closure-may-be-postponed-until-at-least-2025/
This got me wondering. Is there any indication for someone listening
carefully (maybe on headphones) that teleswitching is taking place?
Can it take place at any time or are there fixed times of day? Does it
take place during the time signal (pips)?
and can be transmitted at any time.
To detect it requires a phase modulation sensitive receiver, and is very >unlikely to be detectable on a normal AM receiver.
One part of the specification for the teleswitching service was no
adverse effects on audio quality.
As it does not use amplitude modulation, a low bit rate signal could be >transmitted and received using a much lower power than the existing >transmitter. Estimates say 50 kW to give the same coverage as the
existing 500 kW.
Similar, albeit flea power systems (Milliwatts) on other frequencies are
used to link remote monitoring stations to bases, where even the thermal >noise of the receiver is larger than the received signal. Not so much a >signal to noise ratio, as a noise to signal ratio.
can it also be used by gas meters?
On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 18:49:46 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 06/08/2024 18:50, Scott wrote:Smart gas meters, in the UK at least, use a low power link to send data
On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 18:01:10 +0100, John Williamson
As it does not use amplitude modulation, a low bit rate signal could >>>> be transmitted and received using a much lower power than the
existing transmitter. Estimates say 50 kW to give the same coverage
as the existing 500 kW.
Would such a low bit rate signal be compatible with existing
electricity meters. Is it electricity only or can it also be used by
gas meters?
It is already used. It is used for more than domestic electricity
tariff changes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch
As gas meters before the smart types did not have any electrical
connection or supply, and only measured gas volume using a bellows or
similar device, there was no need for teleswitching on gas, just
someone with a pad and a pen. Smart gas meters can be used to
transmit reading in real times to a central server using cellular
communications, but have limited battery life of up to ten years, by
which time, they need recalibrating anyway.
to the electricity meter. This conserves battery power in the gas meter. >The electricity meter being powered, runs the communication link to the >outside world. In the southern half of the UK this is by the cellular >network (currently O2 but I believe it is moving to Vodafone at some >point). In the north it is by a bespoke 450 MHz network run by Arqiva.
But none of this is related to radio teleswitching, which can’t be used
to read the meters.
What about Scotland? Or is this included in 'the north'?
On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 18:01:10 +0100, John Williamson
As it does not use amplitude modulation, a low bit rate signal could be
transmitted and received using a much lower power than the existing
transmitter. Estimates say 50 kW to give the same coverage as the
existing 500 kW.
Would such a low bit rate signal be compatible with existing
electricity meters. Is it electricity only or can it also be used by
gas meters?
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 06/08/2024 18:50, Scott wrote:Smart gas meters, in the UK at least, use a low power link to send data to >the electricity meter. This conserves battery power in the gas meter. The >electricity meter being powered, runs the communication link to the outside >world. In the southern half of the UK this is by the cellular network >(currently O2 but I believe it is moving to Vodafone at some point). In the >north it is by a bespoke 450 MHz network run by Arqiva. But none of this is >related to radio teleswitching, which can’t be used to read the meters.
On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 18:01:10 +0100, John Williamson
As it does not use amplitude modulation, a low bit rate signal could be >>>> transmitted and received using a much lower power than the existing
transmitter. Estimates say 50 kW to give the same coverage as the
existing 500 kW.
Would such a low bit rate signal be compatible with existing
electricity meters. Is it electricity only or can it also be used by
gas meters?
It is already used. It is used for more than domestic electricity tariff
changes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch
As gas meters before the smart types did not have any electrical
connection or supply, and only measured gas volume using a bellows or
similar device, there was no need for teleswitching on gas, just someone
with a pad and a pen. Smart gas meters can be used to transmit reading
in real times to a central server using cellular communications, but
have limited battery life of up to ten years, by which time, they need
recalibrating anyway.
Scott wrote:
can it also be used by gas meters?
Are there any variable time-of-use domestic gas tariffs?
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 18:49:46 -0000 (UTC), TweedYes, it’s in the north. I carefully used UK.
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 06/08/2024 18:50, Scott wrote:Smart gas meters, in the UK at least, use a low power link to send data to >>> the electricity meter. This conserves battery power in the gas meter. The >>> electricity meter being powered, runs the communication link to the outside >>> world. In the southern half of the UK this is by the cellular network
On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 18:01:10 +0100, John Williamson
As it does not use amplitude modulation, a low bit rate signal could be >>>>>> transmitted and received using a much lower power than the existing >>>>>> transmitter. Estimates say 50 kW to give the same coverage as the
existing 500 kW.
Would such a low bit rate signal be compatible with existing
electricity meters. Is it electricity only or can it also be used by >>>>> gas meters?
It is already used. It is used for more than domestic electricity tariff >>>> changes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch
As gas meters before the smart types did not have any electrical
connection or supply, and only measured gas volume using a bellows or
similar device, there was no need for teleswitching on gas, just someone >>>> with a pad and a pen. Smart gas meters can be used to transmit reading >>>> in real times to a central server using cellular communications, but
have limited battery life of up to ten years, by which time, they need >>>> recalibrating anyway.
(currently O2 but I believe it is moving to Vodafone at some point). In the >>> north it is by a bespoke 450 MHz network run by Arqiva. But none of this is >>> related to radio teleswitching, which can?t be used to read the meters.
What about Scotland? Or is this included in 'the north'?
On 06/08/2024 20:54, Scott wrote:
In a very rural area with low population, would 450 MHz offer as good
coverage as a cellular network given all the investment that has taken
place in mobile coverage?
And many parts of Scotland with no mains gas supply.
With the comments about battery life, I presume there are regulatory complications about mains electrically powered equipment being used for
gas metering.
In a very rural area with low population, would 450 MHz offer as good coverage as a cellular network given all the investment that has taken
place in mobile coverage?
On 07/08/2024 08:55, JMB99 wrote:
On 06/08/2024 20:54, Scott wrote:
In a very rural area with low population, would 450 MHz offer as good
coverage as a cellular network given all the investment that has taken
place in mobile coverage?
And many parts of Scotland with no mains gas supply.
With the comments about battery life, I presume there are regulatory complications about mains electrically powered equipment being used for
gas metering.
Well, yes, that's the primary reason for the battery powered Tx in smart
gas meters, you really don't want anything as potent as mains
electricity involved.
I see a report that R4 long wave may continue until at least 2025: https://keeplongwave.co.uk/2024/03/26/longwave-closure-may-be-postponed-until-at-least-2025/
This got me wondering. Is there any indication for someone listening carefully (maybe on headphones) that teleswitching is taking place?
Can it take place at any time or are there fixed times of day? Does it
take place during the time signal (pips)?
On 06/08/2024 17:22, Scott wrote:
I see a report that R4 long wave may continue until at least 2025:
https://keeplongwave.co.uk/2024/03/26/longwave-closure-may-be-postponed-until-at-least-2025/
This got me wondering. Is there any indication for someone listening
carefully (maybe on headphones) that teleswitching is taking place?
Can it take place at any time or are there fixed times of day? Does it
take place during the time signal (pips)?
As said, it's nothing like you describe.
Here's some detail
https://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/teleswitching/index.shtml
Basically it's a system devised in the 1980s, when there was no there >practical means to send switching commands to millions of devices.
It's long past its sell by date now.
In out theatre kitchen we had a mains powered gas valve to prevent supply
of gas unless the extractor fan was running
With the comments about battery life, I presume there are regulatory complications about mains electrically powered equipment being used for
gas metering.
On 07/08/2024 08:55, JMB99 wrote:
With the comments about battery life, I presume there are regulatory
complications about mains electrically powered equipment being used
for gas metering.
I suspect that most gas meters don't have a mains supply anywhere near.
On 07/08/2024 18:32, Max Demian wrote:
On 07/08/2024 08:55, JMB99 wrote:Depends what you mean by "near". Many were and are mounted in the
With the comments about battery life, I presume there are regulatory
complications about mains electrically powered equipment being used
for gas metering.
I suspect that most gas meters don't have a mains supply anywhere near.
cupboard under the stairs next to the electricity meter.
On 07/08/2024 19:17, John Williamson wrote:
On 07/08/2024 18:32, Max Demian wrote:
On 07/08/2024 08:55, JMB99 wrote:Depends what you mean by "near". Many were and are mounted in the
With the comments about battery life, I presume there are regulatory
complications about mains electrically powered equipment being used
for gas metering.
I suspect that most gas meters don't have a mains supply anywhere near.
cupboard under the stairs next to the electricity meter.
More recently they have been accessible from outside in flush or proud
boxes.
And, in any case, I doubt that most cupboards under the stairs have
proper power points - maybe just a light wired up somehow by the owner.
https://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/teleswitching/index.shtml
Thanks. I'll read that with interest later on.
Basically it's a system devised in the 1980s, when there was no there >>practical means to send switching commands to millions of devices.
It's long past its sell by date now.
Would it have been possible to send pulses through the mains
electricity supply?
https://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/teleswitching/index.shtml
Thanks. I'll read that with interest later on.
Basically it's a system devised in the 1980s, when there was no there >>>practical means to send switching commands to millions of devices.
It's long past its sell by date now.
Would it have been possible to send pulses through the mains
electricity supply?
I remember reading an article in (I think) Radcom about a radio
amateur who complained to the electricity board or DNO that at a
certain time every evening, if he was transmitting, the mains fuse in
his transmitter would blow. He noticed that the "certain time"
advanced by the same number of seconds on each sucsessive day. It
turned out that the electricity board was applying a DC offset pulse
to the mains in order to switch on the street lights at dusk and the >transformer in his Tx was running so close to saturation that the
pulse was enough to blow the fuse.
On Tue, 03 Sep 2024 13:48:39 +0100, Graham. <graham-usenet@mail.com>
wrote:
https://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/teleswitching/index.shtml
Thanks. I'll read that with interest later on.
Basically it's a system devised in the 1980s, when there was no there >>>practical means to send switching commands to millions of devices.
It's long past its sell by date now.
Would it have been possible to send pulses through the mains
electricity supply?
I remember reading an article in (I think) Radcom about a radio
amateur who complained to the electricity board or DNO that at a
certain time every evening, if he was transmitting, the mains fuse in
his transmitter would blow. He noticed that the "certain time"
advanced by the same number of seconds on each sucsessive day. It
turned out that the electricity board was applying a DC offset pulse
to the mains in order to switch on the street lights at dusk and the >transformer in his Tx was running so close to saturation that the
pulse was enough to blow the fuse.
When you say 'the mains', was this a local arrangement or was it
applied across the grid (or indeed did this occur before the advent of
the grid)?
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Tue, 03 Sep 2024 13:48:39 +0100, Graham. <graham-usenet@mail.com>
wrote:
https://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/teleswitching/index.shtml
Thanks. I'll read that with interest later on.
Basically it's a system devised in the 1980s, when there was no there
practical means to send switching commands to millions of devices.
It's long past its sell by date now.
Would it have been possible to send pulses through the mains
electricity supply?
I remember reading an article in (I think) Radcom about a radio
amateur who complained to the electricity board or DNO that at a
certain time every evening, if he was transmitting, the mains fuse in
his transmitter would blow. He noticed that the "certain time"
advanced by the same number of seconds on each sucsessive day. It
turned out that the electricity board was applying a DC offset pulse
to the mains in order to switch on the street lights at dusk and the
transformer in his Tx was running so close to saturation that the
pulse was enough to blow the fuse.
When you say 'the mains', was this a local arrangement or was it
applied across the grid (or indeed did this occur before the advent of
the grid)?
It certainly wouldn't have been the grid because D.C. wouldn't have
been coupled through the step-down transformers.
It certainly wouldn't have been the grid because D.C. wouldn't have
been coupled through the step-down transformers.
On 03/09/2024 16:11, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
It certainly wouldn't have been the grid because D.C. wouldn't have
been coupled through the step-down transformers.
I'd guess the DC was added in the substation.
This would be on the days before they put daylight sensors on one or two lamps per street to control the rest, and after the clockwork time
switches went out of fashion. The were really cutting edge, as they
allowed for the varying day length over the year.
On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 16:11:34 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Tue, 03 Sep 2024 13:48:39 +0100, Graham. <graham-usenet@mail.com>
wrote:
https://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/teleswitching/index.shtml
Thanks. I'll read that with interest later on.
Basically it's a system devised in the 1980s, when there was no
there practical means to send switching commands to millions of
devices.
It's long past its sell by date now.
Would it have been possible to send pulses through the mains
electricity supply?
I remember reading an article in (I think) Radcom about a radio
amateur who complained to the electricity board or DNO that at a
certain time every evening, if he was transmitting, the mains fuse in
his transmitter would blow. He noticed that the "certain time"
advanced by the same number of seconds on each sucsessive day. It
turned out that the electricity board was applying a DC offset pulse
to the mains in order to switch on the street lights at dusk and the
transformer in his Tx was running so close to saturation that the
pulse was enough to blow the fuse.
When you say 'the mains', was this a local arrangement or was it
applied across the grid (or indeed did this occur before the advent of
the grid)?
It certainly wouldn't have been the grid because D.C. wouldn't have
been coupled through the step-down transformers.
Where would this pulse be introduced then? Do you think it is still in
use? I assume not. How would modern day electronic equipment deal with
this surprise?
In article <ljopg7FergpU1@mid.individual.net>,
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 03/09/2024 16:11, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
It certainly wouldn't have been the grid because D.C. wouldn't haveI'd guess the DC was added in the substation.
been coupled through the step-down transformers.
This would be on the days before they put daylight sensors on one or two
lamps per street to control the rest, and after the clockwork time
switches went out of fashion. The were really cutting edge, as they
allowed for the varying day length over the year.
It was only a couple of year ago that I had to replace the solar dial time switch for our Village Hall outside lights - with an idential unit. A
simple cam profile defined the on and off times.
On 03/09/2024 16:11, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
It certainly wouldn't have been the grid because D.C. wouldn't haveI'd guess the DC was added in the substation.
been coupled through the step-down transformers.
This would be on the days before they put daylight sensors on one or two lamps per street to control the rest, and after the clockwork time
switches went out of fashion. The were really cutting edge, as they
allowed for the varying day length over the year.
On Tue, 03 Sep 2024 13:48:39 +0100, Graham. <graham-usenet@mail.com>
wrote:
https://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/teleswitching/index.shtml
Thanks. I'll read that with interest later on.
Basically it's a system devised in the 1980s, when there was no there >>>>practical means to send switching commands to millions of devices.
It's long past its sell by date now.
Would it have been possible to send pulses through the mains
electricity supply?
I remember reading an article in (I think) Radcom about a radio
amateur who complained to the electricity board or DNO that at a
certain time every evening, if he was transmitting, the mains fuse in
his transmitter would blow. He noticed that the "certain time"
advanced by the same number of seconds on each sucsessive day. It
turned out that the electricity board was applying a DC offset pulse
to the mains in order to switch on the street lights at dusk and the >>transformer in his Tx was running so close to saturation that the
pulse was enough to blow the fuse.
When you say 'the mains', was this a local arrangement or was it
applied across the grid (or indeed did this occur before the advent of
the grid)?
On 03/09/2024 16:30, charles wrote:
In article <ljopg7FergpU1@mid.individual.net>,Nice to know they still make them. The same principle was used in the
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 03/09/2024 16:11, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
It certainly wouldn't have been the grid because D.C. wouldn't haveI'd guess the DC was added in the substation.
been coupled through the step-down transformers.
This would be on the days before they put daylight sensors on one or two >>> lamps per street to control the rest, and after the clockwork time
switches went out of fashion. The were really cutting edge, as they
allowed for the varying day length over the year.
It was only a couple of year ago that I had to replace the solar dial time >> switch for our Village Hall outside lights - with an idential unit. A
simple cam profile defined the on and off times.
days of gas lamps, with clockwork drive. Some lucky soul had the job of >winding them up...
On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 17:36:00 +0100, John Williamson ><johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 03/09/2024 16:30, charles wrote:
In article <ljopg7FergpU1@mid.individual.net>,Nice to know they still make them. The same principle was used in the
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 03/09/2024 16:11, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
It certainly wouldn't have been the grid because D.C. wouldn't have >>>>> been coupled through the step-down transformers.I'd guess the DC was added in the substation.
This would be on the days before they put daylight sensors on one or two >>>> lamps per street to control the rest, and after the clockwork time
switches went out of fashion. The were really cutting edge, as they
allowed for the varying day length over the year.
It was only a couple of year ago that I had to replace the solar dial time >>> switch for our Village Hall outside lights - with an idential unit. A
simple cam profile defined the on and off times.
days of gas lamps, with clockwork drive. Some lucky soul had the job of >>winding them up...
There are still some working gas lanterns in Green Park/ Buckingham
Palace area. The clockwork gas valves can be seen
I was looking at the account, they have managed to accumulate a large
amount of credit on my account. I thought originally Direct Debits
could be set up so the company could change the amount debited
so there
was no need for them to always debit far more than needed.
I was looking at the account, they have managed to accumulate a large
amount of credit on my account. I thought originally Direct Debits
could be set up so the company could change the amount debited so there
was no need for them to always debit far more than needed.
On 15/09/2024 15:01, JMB99 wrote:
I was looking at the account, they have managed to accumulate a large amount of credit on my account. I thought originally Direct Debits
could be set up so the company could change the amount debited so there
was no need for them to always debit far more than needed.
Back in the days when I had gas and electricity meters and paid by
direct debit, the story was that they averaged out yoru expected
consumption over the year, so you built up a credit balance in the warm weather, but the debit stayed the same over Winter, which, in theory,
used up the credit.
The estimated readings they often used were always on the high side,so
they ended up with loads of your zbarl in their account, and they never volunteered to give it back to you. They would, if pressed, reduce the
DD amount over the next year. If it turned out that this was too
low,they didn't tell you, they just increased the DD again.
On 15/09/2024 17:28, John Williamson wrote:
The estimated readings they often used were always on the high side,so
they ended up with loads of your zbarl in their account, and they never volunteered to give it back to you. They would, if pressed, reduce the
DD amount over the next year. If it turned out that this was too
low,they didn't tell you, they just increased the DD again.
There were a couple of cases on Watchdog last week where the electricity
held large amounts and it took ages to get it back.
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