• Re: Shooting on reversal - errors in my link!

    From SimonM@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 16 22:25:01 2025
    On 16/05/2025 22:04, SimonM wrote: [stuff]

    P15 for the Keller picture:

    https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/archive/pdffiles/engineering/bbc_engineering_81.pdf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From SimonM@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 17 11:55:57 2025
    In case you missed it, this is the Eng Inf from
    1970 that covers film at the Spur: https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/archive/pdffiles/engineering/bbc_engineering_81.pdf

    There's a loop on the front-left transport in the
    picture. We rarely if ever ran them on the Keller,
    because of the propensity to chew up the stock and
    cause chaos, but... this makes some sense:

    It's loaded on the second record-capable
    transport, and would be long enough for probably
    about 15-20secs. Assuming the drop-out capability
    was tweaked-up (i.e. _stopping_ recording
    cleanly), you could drop a disk of traffic or
    anything else onto it.

    This would mean you could drop-in on the main
    record transport anywhere you needed to, without
    getting an audible discontinuity ("punch-in" in
    recording studio parlance).

    Obviously there was an edit or drop-out (not
    dropout!) somewhere on the loop, but it would
    always be in the same place. Handy for tricky
    transitions and/or awkward gram-spinning
    sequences. I once did an entire cricket over (it
    came in to us entirely mute!), complete with bat
    hitting ball and crowd reaction, off disc. Nobody
    was more surprised than me when it worked! I think
    we broke it down ball-by-ball...

    Of course it might just have been a loop of tone
    for line-up!

    Aside: Loops were extensively used in cinema for
    dialogue replacement. The sound assistant editor
    would prepare them with location-recorded dialogue
    lines, and actors would work through each scene,
    hearing their live version to help with lip-sync.

    It's known as 'looping' or ADR (automatic dialogue
    replacement), and is still very common, although
    these days all digital.

    We couldn't do any of that safely on the Keller,
    but when the dubbing theatre was upgraded to
    Perfectone Rapimags in the early 1980s, the
    transports were vertical in 19" bays (electronic
    sync by shaft encoders and pulse counters).

    Loops could then be accommodated by a sort of
    clothes-horse arrangement, sticking out sideways
    from the top of the bay, and rollers with weights
    on provided the necessary tension. It was hardly
    ever used.

    SCHEDULING:

    Back on telly news, there was an early editorial
    meeting, where the overnight journalist(s) would
    brief the editor on stories of interest, and
    planned stuff in the newsroom diary would be
    considered also.

    Film crews would be allocated and dispatched.

    At 0930 there was an early meeting for main
    players on the programme: journalists in-base,
    film editors, the studio TM and Sound Super (SS),
    graphics, and anyone else who needed to know
    detail. The provisional running order was
    explained. Any issues arising could be further
    discussed, for example if a second sound person
    was needed to swing grams, I'd be calling the
    audio office to get someone allocated to us
    (unusual to get that much notice!).

    Most filming happened in the morning, and would've
    already been under way by the 0930h meeting with a
    deadline of 1100h or 1130h for the film cans to be
    with the dispatch rider. They'd aim to be back in
    base by 1200-1230h, and the film went straight
    into the lab. Transfers, if necessary, would start
    in TK (for commag) as soon as it was dry, and
    cutting the story as soon as possible after that.

    Both the film crew staff and the journalists had
    PMR back to the newsroom. Our base station was on
    Mendip mast, so covered the region pretty well.

    There was a second meeting around 1400h, covering
    a (nearly) finalized running order, confirming
    studio requirements and other issues. There were
    usually fewer journalists in that meeting (they
    were either writing, still out, or in the cutting
    rooms, working on story and script).

    Journalist and editor together would build each
    story. If there was time and availability they
    might record a commentary (OOV "out of vision")
    script in the dubbing theatre to picture, or
    'wild' in the actual TV studio, to 1/4" for
    transfer to sepmag. Often, the journalist would do
    the voiceover live, from an unused presenter desk
    in the studio.

    Studio afternoons could also get busy.

    We'd sometimes get time to see a mute piece of
    film run from TK, so we could prep sound FX for
    it. Much time was spent doing transfers from TK to
    VT. More on this in a sec.

    When it got colour videotape, Bristol originally
    had a only an edit pair of VR2000 quad machines,
    but they were necessary for Points West: the
    shortest item in the programme was a minimum of
    15secs (a simple news item read by a presenter).
    That's too short a time to cue up a TK machine, or
    VT for that matter.

    Important aside: news film used a different leader
    to network programmes (on film).

    Network and Academy leaders counted in 35mm feet
    (about 0.6-7secs per number in the countdown).
    IIRC, the sync cross was 12 feet back from picture
    start, meaning you'd cue a network show on TK from
    the sync cross, for a 10sec countdown.

    News leaders counted in seconds, not feet. To
    match the original Quad VT cue-up point (giving 10
    seconds to run up and lock to station pulses), TK
    would cue up on "10" rather than the sync cross.
    News leaders also had a vertical white bar moving
    left-to-right between the numbered frames. This
    meant at a glance you could tell if TK was running
    and in which direction!

    When TK ran, there should have then been 6+ secs
    of tone, sync plop on '3' then 3 secs of silence
    before first frame (this could also be first
    shot's sound and picture early for fading-up
    purposes).

    But the sync cross (which you never see) was 20s
    back from first frame (this is important, as
    there's no audible sync point on '10'). Aside:
    Sync plop is on '4' with an 'Academy' BBC leader.

    Obviously if TK was lacing up a single item (very
    unusual for a live show), they'd be doing it at
    least two programme items earlier than it was
    needed, at the latest (find the sync crosses, lock
    transports together, run down single speed and
    park on "10" for the cue).

    TK usually had a made-up full reel for
    transmission, with every item they were to play in
    cut together in order. I'm not sure if the film
    editor(s) did this or the TK operator - I think
    the latter. Late items meant unloading the main
    roll, lacing the item as above and the re-lacing
    the main roll. I'm not sure how they achieved it,
    but a film splicer might have been involved.

    Why transfers to VT? If you had two "with moving
    pictures" news items back-to-back, you had to play
    them in from different sources, as no machine
    (neither VT nor TK) could cue up in time for the
    second item.

    TK was particularly slow - I have a vague memory
    that our earliest polyprism machine could only
    manage single speed forward or reverse, and even
    the Cintel Mk2 was only double speed. Either way I
    have done a couple of horrendous live shows where
    for some reason TK missed a cue near the beginning
    of the show, and never caught up!

    So a crucial part of the director's
    responsibilities during the afternoon was
    transferring film to VT as/when stories became
    available to do it, and ensuring she hadn't got
    consecutive items coming from the same source.

    It was handy for me as a SS, as I had to be there
    to take sound through the desk, and it was a
    chance to spot lip sync errors and holes in the
    soundtracks.

    So, by around 1600-1630, hopefully all transfers
    were done and scripts typed up. Thus a first
    proper script-check, giving a chance to write notes.

    There followed a rehearsal, initially a proper one
    (as-live), but over the years this became a
    stagger-through of any tricky bits, and finally no
    rehearsal at all.

    Finally, sometimes only a few minutes before
    transmission, the opening sequence of the show
    would be recorded to VT (I suspect it still is),
    with "coming-up in tonight's show" clips and a bed
    of music. This was brilliant as it allowed the
    studio to calmly go live, with a minute or two's
    straightforward stuff off VTA before actually
    coming back to the studio live.

    Obviously 'stuff' happened to derail all this
    careful prep. Late stories were common, so I often
    had film editors cueing me over my shoulder during
    the live show, to hide gaps in sound or yelling
    "cue" over talkback to their journalist in the
    studio (nobody else knew where the cues should be
    at that point in the day!).

    This was a bit after we had mostly ditched film
    for video on location:

    My very first day on my own as SS (literally) it
    was a quiet Monday, and I was working alongside a
    radio producer I knew quite well, who'd recently
    transferred across to television from Radio 4.

    Sarah was very organised, and we'd got all the
    transfers done by about 1600h, and even had time
    for a coffee break (unheard of!). About 1630h a
    breathless journalist poked his head round the
    gallery door, to announce to the world "There's
    been a riot in St. Pauls."

    That woke us up a bit! The original script
    immediately went out of the window (as did all the
    timings). I was getting new script pages dropped
    over my shoulder whilst still transmitting the
    previous one, and a breathless journalist was
    faded up as he clipped-on a personal mic in the
    studio, whilst sliding into his seat. Both VT and
    TK didn't even see the running order, let alone
    have a make-up reel. Lots of stories were simply
    dropped, which made life a bit easier, and I don't
    remember we missed any of the cues at all.

    Live TV news? Loved every minute of it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From NY@21:1/5 to SimonM on Sat May 17 12:40:47 2025
    "SimonM" <somewhere@large.in.the.world> wrote in message news:1009pvu$btse$1@dont-email.me...

    Network and Academy leaders counted in 35mm feet (about 0.6-7secs per
    number in the countdown). IIRC, the sync cross was 12 feet back from
    picture start, meaning you'd cue a network show on TK from the sync cross, for a 10sec countdown.

    News leaders counted in seconds, not feet. To match the original Quad VT cue-up point (giving 10 seconds to run up and lock to station pulses), TK would cue up on "10" rather than the sync cross. News leaders also had a vertical white bar moving left-to-right between the numbered frames. This meant at a glance you could tell if TK was running and in which direction!

    When TK ran, there should have then been 6+ secs of tone, sync plop on '3' then 3 secs of silence before first frame (this could also be first shot's sound and picture early for fading-up purposes).

    But the sync cross (which you never see) was 20s back from first frame
    (this is important, as there's no audible sync point on '10'). Aside: Sync plop is on '4' with an 'Academy' BBC leader.


    I've always wondered why Academy leaders were ever chosen to be in 35mm feet rather than seconds (ie 24 or 25 frames per number), since cueing in general (not specifically film) is done in units of time. One of life's mysteries.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From SimonM@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 17 22:15:47 2025
    On 17/05/2025 12:40, NY wrote:

    I've always wondered why Academy leaders were ever
    chosen to be in 35mm feet rather than seconds (ie
    24 or 25 frames per number), since cueing in
    general (not specifically film) is done in units
    of time. One of life's mysteries.

    It's actually a much easier beat to count to than
    seconds. When I first started in dubbing several
    people told me that, and indeed I found it to be
    true.

    You get used to seconds, and I can still do both
    in my head, 40+ years since I last really needed to.

    I suspect it might simply have to do with film
    stock being measured in feet. The confusing bit is
    16mm feet, which are 40 frames irrespective of
    camera speed - only ever used when looking for the
    right sized roll of blank sepmag in the cupboard!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From NY@21:1/5 to SimonM on Sat May 17 22:52:45 2025
    On 17/05/2025 22:15, SimonM wrote:
    You get used to seconds, and I can still do both in my head, 40+ years
    since I last really needed to.

    You can count seconds and 0.6 seconds (35 mm feet) *in your head*
    without needing a stopwatch etc to do it?

    There are times when I'm sure I was born without an "estimating in your
    head" gene ;-) If I can't measure something, I'm lost. My estimates of
    time, weight, distance are notorious for being +/- an embarrassingly
    large tolerance :-(

    I can't understand how my wife can do it; she can't understand how I
    *can't* do it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From SimonM@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 18 09:35:27 2025
    On 17/05/2025 22:52, NY wrote:
    On 17/05/2025 22:15, SimonM wrote:
    You get used to seconds, and I can still do both
    in my head, 40+ years since I last really needed
    to.

    You can count seconds and 0.6 seconds (35 mm feet)
    *in your head* without needing a stopwatch etc to
    do it?

    Not for very long ( <45s when I did it for a
    living), and not very accurately, but accurately
    enough for purpose. Essential for doing spot FX
    (human-made sound effects) to picture, for example.

    Nowadays, I know I have 14 secs, so I can get the
    milk from the fridge ready for when the microwave
    pings with my black coffee (exciting life, eh?).


    There are times when I'm sure I was born without
    an "estimating in your head" gene ;-)  If I can't
    measure something, I'm lost. My estimates of time,
    weight, distance are notorious for being +/- an
    embarrassingly large tolerance :-(

    I can't claim super-powers: it was practised every
    day when I needed to do it. I think 35mm feet are
    a musical rhythm, too, but seconds are too slow
    for that, which makes them harder.

    I can't understand how my wife can do it; she
    can't understand how I *can't* do it.

    That's just normal married life (our 41st
    anniversary is next month). I'm going deaf. She
    just gets angry at me...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver@21:1/5 to SimonM on Sun Jun 1 12:14:48 2025
    On 18/05/2025 09:35, SimonM wrote:
    On 17/05/2025 22:52, NY wrote:
    On 17/05/2025 22:15, SimonM wrote:
    You get used to seconds, and I can still do both in my head, 40+
    years since I last really needed to.

    You can count seconds and 0.6 seconds (35 mm feet) *in your head*
    without needing a stopwatch etc to do it?

    Not for very long ( <45s when I did it for a living), and not very accurately, but accurately enough for purpose. Essential for doing spot
    FX (human-made sound effects) to picture, for example.

    Nowadays, I know I have 14 secs, so I can get the milk from the fridge
    ready for when the microwave pings with my black coffee (exciting life,
    eh?).


    There are times when I'm sure I was born without an "estimating in
    your head" gene ;-)  If I can't measure something, I'm lost. My
    estimates of time, weight, distance are notorious for being +/- an
    embarrassingly large tolerance :-(

    I can't claim super-powers: it was practised every day when I needed to
    do it. I think 35mm feet are a musical rhythm, too, but seconds are too
    slow for that, which makes them  harder.

    (I never knew Academy wasn't in seconds, though I'd noticed it wasn't.
    Thanks for the [feet] explanation.) As you say, practice/repetition does
    it; I (in electronics - latterly avionics maintenance) had at least one
    process where being able to count seconds was useful, so developed the
    ability with time. (Agreed, longer is harder.) I wouldn't claim any
    special skill. Though I still think I could do a (say) 10 second
    interval more accurately than most people - but from experience/practice
    rather than any innate ability.>
    I can't understand how my wife can do it; she can't understand how I
    *can't* do it.


    That's just normal married life (our 41st anniversary is next month).
    I'm going deaf. She just gets angry at me...
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
    

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?B?Um9nZXIgV2lsa2luc29u?=@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 18 09:15:05 2025
    On Sat May 17 11:55:57 2025 SimonM wrote:
    In case you missed it, this is the Eng Inf from
    1970 that covers film at the Spur: https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/archive/pdffiles/engineering/bbc_engineering_81.pdf

    News TK - spritual home of the brown load (so named for multiple reasons)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)