Hello,

I had started preparing a PR for removing stuff like that from sicilian offensive, because that only has a handful of fortunes and I could
review them one by one and research them on the internet if I wasn't
sure if they should be interpreted like I thought (I haven't finished
this job yet).

I'd hold off for now since we don't know where this is all going.

Also if you are not a Sicilian speaker, please start by focussing on
the Italian ones.

Most importantly if you don't think "fascism=bad" is relevant, I am
not really sure you are qualified to help.

don't have enough time to review those and given what I've already found
I'm not expecting it to be an easy job.

Yes, which is why I complain about the timing of this.

No, it is not *much more* relevant. Again, the offensive section
contains calls to beat women.

No. Fascism is very bad. I think it's weird and frankly worrying
you're saying fascism is not relevant. I hope I am misunderstanding
you.

The stuff about beating women is there BECAUSE I MOVED IT AWAY FROM
THE NORMAL SECTION!

Check commit 2e4327de for example.

Without me it could have remained in the normal section another 200
years for what anyone here cares about.

contain offensive stuff. However, after looking into the package I think
they made the right call

It has been in the normal section for 22 years, it has probably been
seen by a lot of people. That is bad.

Now it's hidden in the offensive section where you had to go out of
your way to see it and be offended by it. Do you think it's the same
thing?

We might discuss that I should have been less conservative about old
content… probably. In the beginning I was much less aggressive with
changes.

Best

--
Salvo Tomaselli

I difensori della morale tradizionale sono raramente persone di cuore. Si è tentati di pensare che essi si servano della morale come di legittimo sfogo
al loro desiderio di fare del male agli altri.
-- Bertrand Russell, Perché non sono cristiano. 1957


https://ltworf.codeberg.page/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hello,

Beato chi prenderà i tuoi piccoli bambini e li sbatterà contro la roccia!

Debian is shipping the bible, which contains the above quote and many
many other similar ones.

Will you be opening an RC bug against it?

You are indeed. It is very relevant, it is just not *much more* relevant
than calling for beating women.

You're aware that fascism advocates beating up and killing both men
and women right?

I really appreciate the job (believe me, I'm not saying this just for
the sake of it),

Excusatio non petita, accusatio manifesta.

They should not even be in a source package tbh.

As I said. I 100% agree. I disagree with the sudden need for urgency.

Best
--
Salvo Tomaselli

I difensori della morale tradizionale sono raramente persone di cuore. Si è tentati di pensare che essi si servano della morale come di legittimo sfogo
al loro desiderio di fare del male agli altri.
-- Bertrand Russell, Perché non sono cristiano. 1957


https://ltworf.codeberg.page/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 17/07/25 21:57, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:

Hello,

I had started preparing a PR for removing stuff like that from sicilian
offensive, because that only has a handful of fortunes and I could
review them one by one and research them on the internet if I wasn't
sure if they should be interpreted like I thought (I haven't finished
this job yet).

I'd hold off for now since we don't know where this is all going.

Agreed.

Also if you are not a Sicilian speaker, please start by focussing on
the Italian ones.

I am. I mentioned researching stuff because although some of the
sicilian ones looked very sexist, I tried to get a better grasp of the
context before deciding whether they should be removed. I found none.

Most importantly if you don't think "fascism=bad" is relevant, I am
not really sure you are qualified to help.

I do.

don't have enough time to review those and given what I've already found
I'm not expecting it to be an easy job.

Yes, which is why I complain about the timing of this.

No, it is not*much more* relevant. Again, the offensive section
contains calls to beat women.

No. Fascism is very bad. I think it's weird and frankly worrying
you're saying fascism is not relevant. I hope I am misunderstanding
you.

You are indeed. It is very relevant, it is just not *much more* relevant
than calling for beating women. Removing both of these is very much and
equally relevant, each for their own reasons.

The stuff about beating women is there BECAUSE I MOVED IT AWAY FROM
THE NORMAL SECTION!

Check commit 2e4327de for example.

Without me it could have remained in the normal section another 200
years for what anyone here cares about.

contain offensive stuff. However, after looking into the package I think
they made the right call

It has been in the normal section for 22 years, it has probably been
seen by a lot of people. That is bad.

Now it's hidden in the offensive section where you had to go out of
your way to see it and be offended by it. Do you think it's the same
thing?

I really appreciate the job (believe me, I'm not saying this just for
the sake of it), but unfortunately some of that content is not even
offensive, it's borderline criminal, it doesn't even belong to the
offensive section. Yes, not having it visible for the majority of users
is 100% an achievement you should be credited for, and in this sense no,
I don't think it's the same thing. But also, Debian should not be
distributing that stuff, regardless of what binary package they're in.
They should not even be in a source package tbh.

We might discuss that I should have been less conservative about old content… probably. In the beginning I was much less aggressive with changes.

I'm relatively new here so I don't really have strong opinions on the past.

Best

Cheers!

-- Salvo Tomaselli I difensori della morale tradizionale sono raramente persone di cuore. Si è tentati di pensare che essi si servano della
morale come di legittimo sfogo al loro desiderio di fare del male agli
altri. -- Bertrand Russell, Perché non sono cristiano. 1957 https:// ltworf.codeberg.page/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hello,

You do understand fortunes-{it,scn}-off is not a sacred text?

You do understand that suggesting that killing kids is good is
extremely disturbing to most people?

To answer your question directly, no, I will not be opening an RC bug
against the bible.

Not "the bible", but "the debian package containing the bible"

Why the hypocritical double standard?

So just to be clear. You are aware and agree that your package contains content -- e.g. violent content -- that should not be shipped in Debian,
yet you are willing to have your name associated to it and the content
itself to be shipped in Trixie?

Yep. Sorry I did not have an infinite amount of time to spend on
rectifying this.

You're aware of what a "fork" is and that I did not actually add those
things myself right?

And just to be clear, you are completely ok with Debian shipping
quotes about how killing kids by smashing their heads on rocks is good
and you are ok with Debian continuing to do so forever, right?

How curious.

--
Salvo Tomaselli

I difensori della morale tradizionale sono raramente persone di cuore. Si è tentati di pensare che essi si servano della morale come di legittimo sfogo
al loro desiderio di fare del male agli altri.
-- Bertrand Russell, Perché non sono cristiano. 1957


https://ltworf.codeberg.page/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 17/07/25 23:41, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:

Hello,

Beato chi prenderà i tuoi piccoli bambini e li sbatterà contro la roccia!

Debian is shipping the bible, which contains the above quote and many
many other similar ones.

Will you be opening an RC bug against it?

I agree there's a case to be made there. Not entirely sure it would have crossed my mind to compare fortunes-{it,scn}-off with the bible though,
to be honest. You do understand fortunes-{it,scn}-off is not a sacred text?

To answer your question directly, no, I will not be opening an RC bug
against the bible. If it wasn't a sacred text I may, depending on what
package it was. Yours is a fortunes-* package.

You are indeed. It is very relevant, it is just not*much more* relevant
than calling for beating women.

You're aware that fascism advocates beating up and killing both men
and women right?

No, not men and women. Political opponents, minorities, and so on,
regardless of whether they are men and women, plus probably women
specifically, depending on context. As I said, very much and equally
relevant, each for their own reasons.

I really appreciate the job (believe me, I'm not saying this just for
the sake of it),

Excusatio non petita, accusatio manifesta.

Whatev.

They should not even be in a source package tbh.

As I said. I 100% agree. I disagree with the sudden need for urgency.

So just to be clear. You are aware and agree that your package contains
content -- e.g. violent content -- that should not be shipped in Debian,
yet you are willing to have your name associated to it and the content
itself to be shipped in Trixie?

Best

Cheers

-- Salvo Tomaselli I difensori della morale tradizionale sono raramente persone di cuore. Si è tentati di pensare che essi si servano della
morale come di legittimo sfogo al loro desiderio di fare del male agli
altri. -- Bertrand Russell, Perché non sono cristiano. 1957 https:// ltworf.codeberg.page/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hello,

If you are incapable of understanding the difference between an historical text which was of its time
has great historical significance, contains both transcendental and offensive content, and is
significant and/or sacred to literally billions of people all over the world, vs. a modern quote from
a comedian saying that some women just deserve to be beaten, then I don't think you are the right
person to be making decisions on behalf of the Debian project about which fortunes are too offensive to ship.

"Vai a donne? Non dimenticare la frusta."
-- Nietzsche, "Cosi' parlo' Zaratustra"

As stated in a previous email, that's a fortune I moved from the
regular to the offensive section.

AFAIK that really isn't "a modern quote from a comedian".

If you are judging me about decisions I didn't take because the stuff
was already there when I forked the project instead of reading my
emails and checking the commits I highlighted as a way to see how I
decide things, I'm not sure you are the right person to decide on
behalf of the Debian project if I am capable of doing this or not.

And if, through your conduct in this discussion, you have demonstrated that you are not the
right person to be making these decisions

You are saying this for the 3rd time.

But you seemingly did not go and check the commits I indicated
(2e4327de).

Which is entirely ok, it's not your duty to do any of that. And I
understand it's boring.

But if you choose to not read a man's defence, I beg of you, be a bit
slower in issuing the guilty verdict!

Best

--
Salvo Tomaselli

I difensori della morale tradizionale sono raramente persone di cuore. Si è tentati di pensare che essi si servano della morale come di legittimo sfogo
al loro desiderio di fare del male agli altri.
-- Bertrand Russell, Perché non sono cristiano. 1957


https://ltworf.codeberg.page/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hi Jonathan!

On Thu, 17 Jul 2025, Jonathan Kamens wrote:

If you are incapable of understanding the difference between an historical text which was of its time, has great historical significance, contains both transcendental and offensive content, and is significant and/or sacred to literally billions of people all over the world, vs. a modern quote from a comedian saying that some women just deserve to be beaten, then I don't
think you are the right person to be making decisions on behalf of the
Debian project about which fortunes are too offensive to ship.

to make this more general: why should anyone care about a written text
some years ago - for this discussion it is not important how old the
text is - and see it as more significant than another text written
some years ago?

if I am not religious I may read this (for you) sacred text with
interest but have questions about (current) morality.
and for that view you have the same questions about the newer text.
because it is about morality.

in my opinion, both texts show the morality _at that time_. so why
hide one of the texts and not the other one?

that is why the newer (for you offensive texts) are in a different
package. not installed by default, but by choice. you do not have to
install it, but you can.

best regards, Hanno Wagner
--
| Hanno Wagner | Member of the HTML Writers Guild | Rince@IRC |
| Eine gewerbliche Nutzung meiner Email-Adressen ist nicht gestattet! |
| 74 a3 53 cc 0b 19 - we did it! | Generation @ |

#"Ich bin zur Zeit dabei, alle Icons des Win95-PCs meiner Eltern mit
# Titeln wie 'Autorennen - bitte doppelt klicken und dann Starttaste
# druecken' auszustatten." -- Florian Kuehnert, de.alt.syadmin.recovery

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 18/07/25 14:25, Marco d'Itri wrote:

You may not be aware of this, but many people reject the idea that some
text or object should be considered "sacred".

I am aware, I am an atheist and agree with that viewpoint. Thank you.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 18/07/25 00:41, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:

Hello,

You do understand fortunes-{it,scn}-off is not a sacred text?

You do understand that suggesting that killing kids is good is
extremely disturbing to most people?

Me included.

To answer your question directly, no, I will not be opening an RC bug
against the bible.

Not "the bible", but "the debian package containing the bible"

Why the hypocritical double standard?

So just to be clear. You are aware and agree that your package contains
content -- e.g. violent content -- that should not be shipped in Debian,
yet you are willing to have your name associated to it and the content
itself to be shipped in Trixie?

Yep.

Acknowledged.
Sorry I did not have an infinite amount of time to spend on

rectifying this.

You're aware of what a "fork" is and that I did not actually add those
things myself right?

And just to be clear, you are completely ok with Debian shipping
quotes about how killing kids by smashing their heads on rocks is good

No.

and you are ok with Debian continuing to do so forever, right?

It's complicated, and nuanced. These complications and nuances do not
apply to your package, which is the subject of this thread.

How curious.

-- Salvo Tomaselli I difensori della morale tradizionale sono raramente persone di cuore. Si è tentati di pensare che essi si servano della
morale come di legittimo sfogo al loro desiderio di fare del male agli
altri. -- Bertrand Russell, Perché non sono cristiano. 1957 https:// ltworf.codeberg.page/

You seem smarter than this. I honestly don't think this conversation is
going anywhere useful. Back to my business.

Cheers

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, July 18, 2025 5:59:06 AM Mountain Standard Time NoisyCoil wrote:

It's complicated, and nuanced. These complications and nuances do not
apply to your package, which is the subject of this thread.

The complication and nuance of this entire discussion is what fascinates me and why I think that Debian really needs to develop a comprehensive standard regarding acceptable content.

As far as I can tell from the discussion and online translations (please correct me if I am wrong), the text that is being referenced here about killing children is Psalms 137:9. The King James Version of this text reads:

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”

Just focusing on this particular entry, it isn’t just that it speaks about violence towards children and the Bible also speaks about violence towards children. It is that it is *a quote* from the Bible.

At a surface level, it is pretty hard to say that it wouldn’t be a double- standard for one package to be allowed to ship the text of the Bible but another package be removed because it ships part of the text of the Bible.

The nuance of this is that context matters. But how that plays out is complicated. So far, on this discussion, I have not seen any proposal I would consider a comprehensive standard by which we can judge the inclusion of such packages in Debian. My hope is that we use this discussion to create such a standard. My concern is that, after much discussion, no standard will be developed.

--
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEJKVN2yNUZnlcqOI+wufLJ66wtgMFAmh691sACgkQwufLJ66w tgM4BA//S0jACy+0j5C4Rr/KhoKkgmSVH7IFFol6v5edl0hMQ+cpN068IWdHQ+Cd KpVH8yOW3+S1ffIdbz7Y88VkqERlxRc74L3epTOt1yBIeS17nPVme8PdifMKPruQ 9/urWpnMWy4asWjjEo5XAlr8XNqPOF7ayrpzJBL51Qm5kAU2AKTVSUWqzyKjpZGj VAZh58HI2FKtG9Ab8yae+9oqjgnZYepCdKnF60Ypx/sjbjA5rlSzETx3e9gDY5OF ccw3ZjhU3TU1PhYmMgHc9nHkEQowBSieyXxxgGdCyLeMiF2MpQAt4jx3nZo2OAqD PE6rESA+gHjs43uweErM0wT7nXhzR3duHv/YIKDmjssj61sPDLC4Q0rlEWfxiLsJ Vho473E5ohL3WPjRCXOqGZCXYk+outDbbovabKXuAJVLNo1zOi1t4zW18MyfeVYA 21T5oHpUYGIKfCnCz7ODoWST/HC9jvjXU8Z/ZsBCiT0yKWA5z6ldIlpZLWroB1iP vhRG8BbMbBuNPs8BmivIBBlu+DG0xFbStMaosUmUpLM0gscUwb0iY97hxC0OeAQy CEbq9GVCQIXV3GJbSVFYqratXIcTHlXLNXaJLVnlMObUk5VigTih5vuks6Qsl5d6 YMoffP/icj4WmFjIzVoOj+8IkrKS/UxPoSOAGzrXM359mbBlcKo=
=0v0q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 06:39:39PM -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:

As far as I can tell from the discussion and online translations (please >correct me if I am wrong), the text that is being referenced here about >killing children is Psalms 137:9. The King James Version of this text reads:

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the >stones.”

Just focusing on this particular entry, it isn’t just that it speaks about >violence towards children and the Bible also speaks about violence towards >children. It is that it is *a quote* from the Bible.

You may be misunderstanding what does https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2025/07/msg00197.html say about
this line.

--
WBR, wRAR

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQJhBAABCgBLFiEEolIP6gqGcKZh3YxVM2L3AxpJkuEFAmh7Rq0tFIAAAAAAFQAP cGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3Jnd3JhckBkZWJpYW4ub3JnAAoJEDNi9wMaSZLh M/IQAIyXzpOz9w/6Q51fXWCYD08/0j90P4yo8yqnR6ST7Ak4Sr/x27KlQvYZCyAD HOxBeba9zKlZjsvKf15QeURZ929ekAn4Eh7AjlIpWaAz5goE3uXZCYLjEllqcYBu xsHskM4JN2fyc0w5DjDNUvGd6MrV3/RY/ydJPXbNUs828XkBbrClXcd0lh6AqHkR j07ipgd6BVSm9tfSlhFp8tGhiKItZV4/2jgx1LeUB6TYmJufas9a59uNiihBqCys jdMmWMAJ/zN2gLk32FtqOA1ibXZnw7ljXoawm61mhtVWcoPjS9IV3NOCXzIMCkqq u8Xd5fyXXI7t9HkuOdrExn6ESQR4gxZSAr0uGWC+lekBGdVlUR0Pu8giOtAdKCL6 iDyVsecooY1/2rl1DYLft1mYq1LvYxbHDdl6qM7A9UvO6g9cGerbjnnZZZ05fQVj ov/LSIW4klW0w7x+9waFIQ5FlvXckrkMqU20/q9aSq4B5uDa9wStpRi/jOX6EWTH BBaYYxX3cJW9HRXUYe7D0vxUiEF335V9c6MIk8oCtX4c2YzAhC1NCXMxkD3CqDT6 ZzgVPRpEyEzb/L4ok1peUWt3JGTNX2d0HcGfBUiF4x981puutUTAkbIW6rhr1qRx isu8I+9alK2kDhmcz6dunLgf61yMdmkMSnLXB0sF5ZERwwse
=Qlmw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 19/07/25 03:39, Soren Stoutner wrote:

On Friday, July 18, 2025 5:59:06 AM Mountain Standard Time NoisyCoil wrote:

It's complicated, and nuanced. These complications and nuances do not
apply to your package, which is the subject of this thread.

The complication and nuance of this entire discussion is what fascinates me and why I think that Debian really needs to develop a comprehensive standard regarding acceptable content.

As far as I can tell from the discussion and online translations (please correct me if I am wrong), the text that is being referenced here about killing children is Psalms 137:9. The King James Version of this text reads:

That seems to be it, yes. I haven't checked but the translation corresponds.

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”

Just focusing on this particular entry, it isn’t just that it speaks about violence towards children and the Bible also speaks about violence towards children. It is that it is*a quote* from the Bible.

Like Andrey said, I think you might have misunderstood. The question was whether I am willing to remove the package shipping the bible because
the bible contains that passage. If the question was whether I would
remove that quote taken from the bible from package X, if that quote was
in the package with no other context (like fortunes are, for example) my
answer would be a hard yes, with no nuance.

At a surface level, it is pretty hard to say that it wouldn’t be a double- standard for one package to be allowed to ship the text of the Bible but another package be removed because it ships part of the text of the Bible.

The quote from the bible was only in the bible, not in any other
package, as far as I know. The referenced double standard was: we allow shipping the bible, which contains violent content, but we don't allow fortunes, which contains violent content.

The nuance of this is that context matters.

Exactly.

But how that plays out is
complicated. So far, on this discussion, I have not seen any proposal I would
consider a comprehensive standard by which we can judge the inclusion of such packages in Debian. My hope is that we use this discussion to create such a standard. My concern is that, after much discussion, no standard will be developed.

That would be nice to have. The subject is extremely complex though, I
wouldn't have expected this specific discussion to bring about a resolution.

-- Soren Stoutner soren@debian.org

Cheers!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hi Salvo,

one big difference for bible-kjv and fortunes-it-off is that bible-kjv provides reasonable defaults. We can discuss whether the package is accepatble or not as a whole but the contents are more or less fixed. On the other hand, the contents of fortunes-it-off is by definition in flux. The more you remove the more you may be asked to remove. And wouldn't it become boring if nothing is added? Debian's structure does not accompdate well data packages with dynamic content. A lot of software we provide have external plugins that we do not package. And - ahem - AI can also revolutionise how fortunes content is collected, served, curated and personalised. I understand that you felt badly treated and this is in my opinion the main issue. But the package itself, maybe there is nothing wrong thinking that it does not have much of a future in its present form in Debian?

Have a nice day,

Charles

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hello,

The quote from the bible was only in the bible, not in any other
package, as far as I know. The referenced double standard was: we allow shipping the bible, which contains violent content, but we don't allow fortunes, which contains violent content.

fortunes do not contain anything on that level of apology of violence at all.

The bible is unsurpassed. I quoted a very famous one but it's far from
being the only one.


--
Salvo Tomaselli

I difensori della morale tradizionale sono raramente persone di cuore. Si è tentati di pensare che essi si servano della morale come di legittimo sfogo
al loro desiderio di fare del male agli altri.
-- Bertrand Russell, Perché non sono cristiano. 1957

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Am Sa, Jul 19, 2025 at 12:21:25 +0200 schrieb NoisyCoil:

Like Andrey said, I think you might have misunderstood. The question was >whether I am willing to remove the package shipping the bible because
the bible contains that passage. If the question was whether I would
remove that quote taken from the bible from package X, if that quote was
in the package with no other context (like fortunes are, for example) my >answer would be a hard yes, with no nuance.

Sorry, why? If it was a „good” quote, you would accept it? What is the difference? They are all quotes. And you can’t judge quotes without the context. Even a „good” quote may be bad if you know the context. That
goes for songs as well („I don’t like Mondays” anyone?).

And if I understand it correctly, the OP has removed „good” quotes from
the package because he didn’t like the author.

So you are saying that Debian users are too stupid to understand and
judge a quote. Well, concerning things like the master/slave „problems”
you may be right. But then all quote packages should be removed.

Stephan

--
| If your life was a horse, you'd have to shoot it. |

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)