I'm aware magnetic video recording really only became practical when
someone thought of moving the heads - Mr. AMP initially, then whoever
thought of the helical (tape-wrap) method.

However, there _were_ linear systems: the most famous (or infamous)
being the BBC's VERA, which ran at 200 IPS. (_Not_ on metal tape - it
used conventional tape, though ½" rather than the more common ¼"; the confusion arises because VERA used a lot of the _mechanics_ of the very
old audio recorder that _had_ used steel strip.)

There may have been more than one amateur system; I remember seeing one
shown, that recorded - I think about 5 minutes on a reel of tape. It was
a novelty item on something light-hearted, such as Nationwide or some
similar programme, so little in the way of technical details were given.
But I'd still like to see it again; does anyone have it (or know its
YouTube location)?

I suspect it might have dated from the 405-line days (though that may
have still been being transmitted simultaneously when I saw the item),
which would have made it more practical (lower bandwidth required). (I'm
pretty sure VERA was 405/A.) [I still think system A was unfairly
denigrated; it produced more-than-acceptable pictures when properly set
up. (Most of the knocking was because comparisons with I involved use of elderly cheap sets, possibly also by people wanting to show how new is
better because it's new and/or they were involved in selling it.)]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf



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J. P. Gilliver wrote:

There may have been more than one amateur system; I remember seeing one shown, that recorded - I think about 5 minutes on a reel of tape. It was
a novelty item on something light-hearted, such as Nationwide or some
similar programme, so little in the way of technical details were given.
But I'd still like to see it again; does anyone have it (or know its
YouTube location)?

Telcan ...

<https://youtu.be/bkV01KF_Wt4>

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On 01/06/2025 12:38, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

There may have been more than one amateur system; I remember seeing one shown, that recorded - I think about 5 minutes on a reel of tape. It was
a novelty item on something light-hearted, such as Nationwide or some
similar programme, so little in the way of technical details were given.
But I'd still like to see it again; does anyone have it (or know its
YouTube location)?

You may be thinking of this unit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PXL2000

Not great quality. <Grin>

https://youtu.be/w41ayVqVwHM

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

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On 01/06/2025 12:38, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

I'm aware magnetic video recording really only became practical when
someone thought of moving the heads - Mr. AMP initially, then whoever
thought of the helical (tape-wrap) method.

However, there _were_ linear systems: the most famous (or infamous)
being the BBC's VERA, which ran at 200 IPS. (_Not_ on metal tape - it
used conventional tape, though ½" rather than the more common ¼"; the confusion arises because VERA used a lot of the _mechanics_ of the very
old audio recorder that _had_ used steel strip.)

There may have been more than one amateur system; I remember seeing one shown, that recorded - I think about 5 minutes on a reel of tape. It was
a novelty item on something light-hearted, such as Nationwide or some
similar programme, so little in the way of technical details were given.
But I'd still like to see it again; does anyone have it (or know its
YouTube location)?

The short record time could be improved with four tracks and
auto-reverse - so there would only be a few seconds lost each track
change - but I suppose that would be difficult to do at such high speeds.

--
Max Demian

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On 01/06/2025 20:05, John Williamson wrote:

On 01/06/2025 12:38, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

There may have been more than one amateur system; I remember seeing one
shown, that recorded - I think about 5 minutes on a reel of tape. It was
a novelty item on something light-hearted, such as Nationwide or some
similar programme, so little in the way of technical details were given.
But I'd still like to see it again; does anyone have it (or know its
YouTube location)?

You may be thinking of this unit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PXL2000

Not great quality. <Grin>

https://youtu.be/w41ayVqVwHM

No, the one I remember was definitely reel-to-reel, though a bit more
homebrew than the Telkan.
I am aware of the PXL2000, and I do admire the ingenuity that went into
it! Pity it was so much a toy, and thus poorly made. Though the clips on
the two links above look pretty good.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf


--
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www.avg.com

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On 01/06/2025 13:08, Andy Burns wrote:

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

There may have been more than one amateur system; I remember seeing
one shown, that recorded - I think about 5 minutes on a reel of tape.
It was a novelty item on something light-hearted, such as Nationwide
or some similar programme, so little in the way of technical details
were given. But I'd still like to see it again; does anyone have it
(or know its YouTube location)?

Telcan ...

<https://youtu.be/bkV01KF_Wt4>

Thanks for that link! Looks like that one dates from 1963. The one I
remember - just a short item, on as I said something like Nationwide -
is, in my memory, somewhat later - 1970s, or possibly even 1980s, though
the actual device may have been older - and didn't (again, from my
memory) use the big professional reels Telcan did, but conventional (for
home tape recorders) either 7" or 5" reels.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf


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"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message news:101he4j$215h6$4@dont-email.me...

I'm aware magnetic video recording really only became practical when
someone thought of moving the heads - Mr. AMP initially, then whoever
thought of the helical (tape-wrap) method.

However, there _were_ linear systems: the most famous (or infamous) being
the BBC's VERA, which ran at 200 IPS. (_Not_ on metal tape - it used conventional tape, though ½" rather than the more common ¼"; the confusion arises because VERA used a lot of the _mechanics_ of the very old audio recorder that _had_ used steel strip.)

The VERA system looked bloody dangerous. 200 ips is about 11 mph and the
edges of the reels would have been moving fast: touch one of those by
accident and I bet you'd know about it. There was also the problem with the tape getting tangled if the take-up mechanism developed any sort of problem.

And the results were pretty ropy, judging by the famous Richard Dimbleby demonstration of it on Panorama - though I've always wondered how much
quality was lost in making the film recording of the programme which is all that we can see nowadays. Certainly there is a very noticeable difference between the live and the VERA playback of the same scene.

There may have been more than one amateur system; I remember seeing one shown, that recorded - I think about 5 minutes on a reel of tape. It was a novelty item on something light-hearted, such as Nationwide or some
similar programme, so little in the way of technical details were given.
But I'd still like to see it again; does anyone have it (or know its
YouTube location)?

There was apparently some abomination that recorded very low-res, low frame-rate video onto audio cassette, as a children's toy. That was probably designed for 525/30 since it was made by Fisher-Price. https://fisherprice.fandom.com/wiki/PXL-2000 Mind you, it ran the tape at
16 7/8 ips rather than the normal 1 7/8 ips. 120x90 pixel sensor in the
camera - told you it was low-res ;-)

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"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message news:101mobi$3vpuv$2@dont-email.me...

On 01/06/2025 20:05, John Williamson wrote:

On 01/06/2025 12:38, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

There may have been more than one amateur system; I remember seeing one
shown, that recorded - I think about 5 minutes on a reel of tape. It was >>> a novelty item on something light-hearted, such as Nationwide or some
similar programme, so little in the way of technical details were given. >>> But I'd still like to see it again; does anyone have it (or know its
YouTube location)?

You may be thinking of this unit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PXL2000

Not great quality. <Grin>

https://youtu.be/w41ayVqVwHM

No, the one I remember was definitely reel-to-reel, though a bit more homebrew than the Telkan.
I am aware of the PXL2000, and I do admire the ingenuity that went into
it! Pity it was so much a toy, and thus poorly made. Though the clips on
the two links above look pretty good.

Yes, there doesn't seem to be any obvious sign of tape dropouts or wiggly vertical edges due to timing errors. Mind you, would those show up on a
120x90 pixel image? ;-)

120x90 is an interesting size. It's not an integer fraction of either PAL (720x576) or NTSC (640x480). They would need a way of mapping 120x90 to NTSC
or PAL to produce video that could be displayed on a TV, via baseband or VHF/UHF modulator.

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On 2025/6/5 10:42:10, NY wrote:

"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message news:101mobi$3vpuv$2@dont-email.me...

[]

I am aware of the PXL2000, and I do admire the ingenuity that went
into it! Pity it was so much a toy, and thus poorly made. Though the
clips on the two links above look pretty good.

Yes, there doesn't seem to be any obvious sign of tape dropouts or
wiggly vertical edges due to timing errors. Mind you, would those show
up on a 120x90 pixel image? ;-)

120x90 is an interesting size. It's not an integer fraction of either
PAL (720x576) or NTSC (640x480). They would need a way of mapping 120x90
to NTSC or PAL to produce video that could be displayed on a TV, via
baseband or VHF/UHF modulator.

(I think it did have a modulator.) It could have been done by the
simpler expedient of just showing it as a small picture in the middle of
the screen; I have a vague memory that that was indeed the case, though
only from internet discussions (I never actually saw one). That would
also have the advantage of keeping the image smaller which always looks
better.

Though doing so would require a frame store? (I'm assuming that
"natively" it ran the 120×90 continously, not in a mid-frame burst.) Or
maybe (if _not_ done as a tiny picture) just clocked out as every (say)
fourth line, which would only require a line store.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf


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On 2025/6/5 10:3:12, NY wrote:

"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message news:101he4j$215h6$4@dont-email.me...

I'm aware magnetic video recording really only became practical when
someone thought of moving the heads - Mr. AMP initially, then whoever
thought of the helical (tape-wrap) method.

However, there _were_ linear systems: the most famous (or infamous)
being the BBC's VERA, which ran at 200 IPS. (_Not_ on metal tape - it
used conventional tape, though ½" rather than the more common ¼"; the
confusion arises because VERA used a lot of the _mechanics_ of the
very old audio recorder that _had_ used steel strip.)

The VERA system looked bloody dangerous. 200 ips is about 11 mph and the edges of the reels would have been moving fast: touch one of those by accident and I bet you'd know about it. There was also the problem with
the tape getting tangled if the take-up mechanism developed any sort of problem.

(I _think_ it had glass doors.) Your mention of the edges of the reels
reminds me of an explanation I heard of why computer CD drives topped
out at about 48 or 50 × speed (if you remember when such drives were
common, the speeds ramped up from ×1 - i. e. same as a CD player -
through ×4, ×8, and so on; beyond I think somewhere around ×12 they
switched from fixed factor to maximum, since the actual rate varies from
inner to outer, or didn't with the faster drives). The explanation I
heard was that it wasn't the mechanics of the drive that was the limit,
it was that much above 50×, the chance of the CDs themselves shattering increased. I have no idea whether there's truth in it (or where I
heard/read it, now).

I think any danger in VERA pales into insignificance compared to the
original use of a large part of the mechanics from which VERA was built,
which was a (very) early audio recorder, which used steel tape rather
than paper/plastic tape with rust stuck to it. (I don't know what
speed.) Editing involved welding, and if there _was_ a snap, you had
ends of steel band scything around … the machine had a room to itself,
for that reason! (Again, I can't remember where I read about it, though
I'm pretty sure of it, as I read someone pointing out that the idea that
VERA used steel band was a fallacy, and explaining how the
misunderstanding arose.)>

And the results were pretty ropy, judging by the famous Richard Dimbleby demonstration of it on Panorama - though I've always wondered how much quality was lost in making the film recording of the programme which is
all that we can see nowadays. Certainly there is a very noticeable
difference between the live and the VERA playback of the same scene.

Agreed on all points. I don't think the film transfer would explain much
of the ropiness, in that surely if it did, it would have the same effect
on both the before and the after: OK, sync might have been better on the "live", but from what I remember the VERAd example was also lower
bandwidth.>

There may have been more than one amateur system; I remember seeing
one shown, that recorded - I think about 5 minutes on a reel of tape.
It was a novelty item on something light-hearted, such as Nationwide
or some similar programme, so little in the way of technical details
were given. But I'd still like to see it again; does anyone have it
(or know its YouTube location)?

Seems nobody else here saw that item! I realise it doesn't help that I
can't remember what I saw it on - I have a feeling it was something light-hearted like Nationwide or similar, not technical - nor what year (decade!). From what I _remember_, the transport looked like that from
an ordinary home tape recorder (Grundig or similar); I think it might
have been fixed to the top of a set. (_Not_ the more
professional-looking one, that used big reels, that's already been
discussed in this thread.)>

There was apparently some abomination that recorded very low-res, low frame-rate video onto audio cassette, as a children's toy. That was
probably designed for 525/30 since it was made by Fisher-Price. https:// fisherprice.fandom.com/wiki/PXL-2000  Mind you, it ran the tape at 16
7/8 ips rather than the normal 1 7/8 ips. 120x90 pixel sensor in the
camera - told you it was low-res ;-)

Also covered in this thread; now becoming popular (FSVO popular) with
"retro" type people, the sort who will use 8mm film cameras for the sake
of it (and I presume less bother - _if_ they can get hold of one of
these toy cameras, they can use it without having to find somewhere to
supply and develop film).


--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf


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